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Post by Rebsie on Apr 27, 2019 12:08:22 GMT -5
Hello folks, I've just managed to log in here for the first time in about 8 or 9 years. I've done minimal gardening and breeding work in the last few years because of other stuff going on in my life, but I've still got my red-podded pea lines ticking over and am growing out some experimental crosses from them this year. I was recently contacted by Andrew B who told me my thread on here was still going strong ... and so it is! I'm amazed and delighted to see so many other people working on red-podded peas.
Just to clear up the uncertainty about the red-podded peas being offered for sale on a Dutch website using my photos, no, these are not anything to do with me. My photos have been used without permission and whatever red podded peas they have, if any, did not come from me. For reasons that all you plant breeders will appreciate, I've not shared my work-in-progress seeds with anyone except a couple of trusted individuals who I very much doubt would have passed my seeds on to a seed company – and anyway my original red-podders in the photos are shelling peas and not edible-podded. So as far as I'm concerned these seeds are not being honestly marketed on the basis of those photos (for what it's worth, since they aren't actually available).
But anyway, it's wonderful to see others getting results from crossing yellows and purples. I haven't yet achieved the edible red pods I was originally aiming for (a lot of it is down to luck because I work on a very small scale) but I still live in hope.
Rebsie
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Post by philagardener on Apr 27, 2019 18:22:27 GMT -5
Rebsie!!! So great to have you log in and to hear that you still are pursuing this project!
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Post by Rebsie on Apr 28, 2019 6:32:53 GMT -5
Thank you. I appreciate the nice welcome.
Yes, my original line of red-podded peas from that surprise F2 I had all those years ago are still going strong. It's currently an F6 I think, and has been putting out the occasional yellow podded plant, but is otherwise now quite stable and consistent with a beautiful solid red colour. Because its flavour is still not in the same league as its looks, I'm treating it as 'breeding material' and trying out different crosses in hopes of getting something else special. I made some crosses to my yellow mangetout and yellow sugarsnap lines and am growing those out at the moment, in the small plot that I have.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 28, 2019 11:25:40 GMT -5
Thank you. I appreciate the nice welcome. Yes, my original line of red-podded peas from that surprise F2 I had all those years ago are still going strong. It's currently an F6 I think, and has been putting out the occasional yellow podded plant, but is otherwise now quite stable and consistent with a beautiful solid red colour. Because its flavour is still not in the same league as its looks, I'm treating it as 'breeding material' and trying out different crosses in hopes of getting something else special. I made some crosses to my yellow mangetout and yellow sugarsnap lines and am growing those out at the moment, in the small plot that I have. This is awesome! I'm excited to hear you may resurect your blog at some point! Mine are in the same boat. Flavor is not terrible, but not exciting. Red color is stable with occasional yellows being thrown out too. Snap shape and edible pods technically, but it's an odd shaped snap and I'm not happy with it. I would probably prefer a good snow pea instead. I'm using it mostly as breeding material too. I've heard that the b Gene for pink flowers might also affect the intensity of red color so that might be an interesting side goal of getting your "peachy pods" back. I'll try to take lots of pictures of mine this year too! |
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Post by galina on May 4, 2019 18:20:44 GMT -5
Welcome back Rebsie. Don't be a stranger on here, good to hear from you. I also have a solid red shelling pea but pretty much tearing my hair out with the mangetouts and snaps, which are never such a good colour. I have no explanation why it works in shelling peas and not in mangetouts, but there is the equivalent that all purple shelling peas I know are a good solid purple, whereas Shiraz mangetout and Sugar Magnolia snap actually have a lot of green with the purple in many of their pods. Just saving seeds needs careful selection for good purples. When crossed with a yellow mangetout they produce nice pods that are mostly red, not the full red of the shelling pea. We will get there I am sure.
Hope you have also kept pretty Luna Trick.
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Post by marekkvapil on Jun 16, 2019 3:10:37 GMT -5
![]() Hello folks,
I am new to this forum. I live in the heart of Europe in Czech Republic not so far away from Brno where Mendel experimented with hybridizing peas:-) I would like to add my first little experience with searching for red podded pea and ask you few questions at the same time. I have crossed Golden Sweet and Shiraz two years ago. This year I have sown around 1000 F2 seeds. I have two observations: 1) I got 86 partly or almost fully red podded plants in the F2 generation. The problem is truly red coloured are only very young pods on each plant, as the older and more matured pods always turn purple. I think the reason behind is colouring of Golden Sweet pods. Because truly yellow pods of this variety are only the young pods while the older pods seem to be more green than yellow. So as yellow turns green in the cross between Golden Sweet and Shiraz the resulting colour affected by anthocyanins turns from red to purple. I think the solution might be to replace the Golden Sweet with another yellow podded variety with more stable yellow in its pods. Is there any such a variety? Or is my line of Golden Sweet just not enough yellow? 2) I expected all the pods in the cross will be without parchment as both parents Shiraz and Golden Sweet are snow peas and crossing ppvv x ppvv should always give ppvv, shouldn´t it? So I was surprised to find out many pods in the F2 generation have the parchment inside the pods. Do you have any idea how is it possible?
The video below shows 86 red-podded plants selected from about 1000 plants in the F2 generation cross between Shiraz and Golden Sweet.
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Post by marekkvapil on Jun 16, 2019 7:50:44 GMT -5
Parchment inside the pods is probably an ancestral trait. Probably mutations have knocked it out in two varieties but in different places. When both varieties are crossed variety A does the first part of the trait and B the last part and you've got parchment again. Some mutations are also extremely susceptible to back mutation. As far as I know there are two genes responsible for parchment named P and V. Simultaneous presence of P and V (PPVV, PpVV, PpVv) conditions normal parchmented pod. If P or V are present alone wihout the other (PPvv, Ppvv or ppVV, ppVv) then the parchment is partial. To have truly snow pea without any parchment you need both p and v. So when crossing two snow pea varieties one should always cross ppvv with ppvv and always get ppvv which is pure snow pea. But my experience does not verify the assumption. So in my view there are two possible explanations:
1) Shiraz or Golden sweet are not truly snow peas and at least one of the varieties has partial parchment (P or V).
2) There is other gene responsible for parchment apart from P and V.
Do you agree? Or is there any other explanation?
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Post by philagardener on Jun 16, 2019 17:50:39 GMT -5
Welcome, marekkvapil! That's a nice garden you have. Glad to have you bring your enthusiasm to the board! |
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Post by marekkvapil on Jun 17, 2019 0:55:48 GMT -5
Welcome, marekkvapil ! That's a nice garden you have. Glad to have you bring your enthusiasm to the board! Thanks for welcome! |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 17, 2019 7:11:51 GMT -5
![]() Hello folks, I am new to this forum. I live in the heart of Europe in Czech Republic not so far away from Brno where Mendel experimented with hybridizing peas:-) I would like to add my first little experience with searching for red podded pea and ask you few questions at the same time. I have crossed Golden Sweet and Shiraz two years ago. This year I have sown around 1000 F2 seeds. I have two observations: 1) I got 86 partly or almost fully red podded plants in the F2 generation. The problem is truly red coloured are only very young pods on each plant, as the older and more matured pods always turn purple. I think the reason behind is colouring of Golden Sweet pods. Because truly yellow pods of this variety are only the young pods while the older pods seem to be more green than yellow. So as yellow turns green in the cross between Golden Sweet and Shiraz the resulting colour affected by anthocyanins turns from red to purple. I think the solution might be to replace the Golden Sweet with another yellow podded variety with more stable yellow in its pods. Is there any such a variety? Or is my line of Golden Sweet just not enough yellow? 2) I expected all the pods in the cross will be without parchment as both parents Shiraz and Golden Sweet are snow peas and crossing ppvv x ppvv should always give ppvv, shouldn´t it? So I was surprised to find out many pods in the F2 generation have the parchment inside the pods. Do you have any idea how is it possible?
The video below shows 86 red-podded plants selected from about 1000 plants in the F2 generation cross between Shiraz and Golden Sweet.
Good job on your crosses! And welcome! Many of us here also participate on the Open Source Seed Initiative forum as well, but there is more info here. In my experience and opinion I don't believe Shiraz OR Golden Sweet are very good snow peas. And by that i mean that no, i do not think either variety is ppvv. The only varieties I taste that might be ppvv are Carouby de Maussaunne, Bijou, Green Beauty, and Dwarf Gray Sugar. And various green snap peas. If my assumptions are true then really that cross is ppVV X VVpp and you are getting a wide range of fiber segregation. The yellow pod mutation does indeed get washed out and light colored over time. There is no other form of it, but some people may be able to select superior selections of it. There are two possible solutions to this. 1. Try using the B gene modifier to have pink flowers and lighter anthocyanins. Someone in England has some varieties like this already. Or 2. Try using the orange-pod gene (orp) in combination with the yellow-pod gene (gp). I am investigating this idea. Orange starts out green and becomes brighter orange the longer it grows and matures. The problem is orp might or might not be tied to certain fiber Gene's. If true, a really good red pod might only be possible in a shelling pea. But until we try we won't know. I am growing some F2s of this cross this season. |
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Post by marekkvapil on Jun 18, 2019 8:30:01 GMT -5
Good job on your crosses! And welcome! Many of us here also participate on the Open Source Seed Initiative forum as well, but there is more info here. In my experience and opinion I don't believe Shiraz OR Golden Sweet are very good snow peas. And by that i mean that no, i do not think either variety is ppvv. The only varieties I taste that might be ppvv are Carouby de Maussaunne, Bijou, Green Beauty, and Dwarf Gray Sugar. And various green snap peas. If my assumptions are true then really that cross is ppVV X VVpp and you are getting a wide range of fiber segregation. The yellow pod mutation does indeed get washed out and light colored over time. There is no other form of it, but some people may be able to select superior selections of it. There are two possible solutions to this. 1. Try using the B gene modifier to have pink flowers and lighter anthocyanins. Someone in England has some varieties like this already. Or 2. Try using the orange-pod gene (orp) in combination with the yellow-pod gene (gp). I am investigating this idea. Orange starts out green and becomes brighter orange the longer it grows and matures. The problem is orp might or might not be tied to certain fiber Gene's. If true, a really good red pod might only be possible in a shelling pea. But until we try we won't know. I am growing some F2s of this cross this season.
Thanks, Andrew, for your ideas! I should definitely try combining orp x gp x antocyanin genes and B gene modifier...
Please, can you clarify me one thing? Is there any difference between ppVV and VVpp? I think there is not, but may be I am wrong as I have no background i genetics. Now, if there is no difference you always get ppVV from that cross, which is the pod with partial parchment not different from its parents. But what I can see is qualitative difference between many parchmented pods in the F2 cross of Goldens Sweet x Shiraz and pods without substantial parchment in both parents.
It is also very interesting that cross between Shiraz and other two snow pea varieties (Oregon Sugar Pod and Sweet Horizon) have not produced any parchmented pods in F2 generation. So the problem probably is in Golden Sweet. And there might be also some other genes responsible for pod parchment apart from P and V:
"In addition to the major genes, we have observed quantitative differences in pod fiber that probably are the result of uncharacterized minor genes." (In: Plant Breeding Reviews, Volume 21.)
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 18, 2019 10:42:19 GMT -5
Thanks, Andrew, for your ideas! I should definitely try combining orp x gp x antocyanin genes and B gene modifier...
Please, can you clarify me one thing? Is there any difference between ppVV and VVpp? I think there is not, but may be I am wrong as I have no background i genetics. Now, if there is no difference you always get ppVV from that cross, which is the pod with partial parchment not different from its parents. But what I can see is qualitative difference between many parchmented pods in the F2 cross of Goldens Sweet x Shiraz and pods without substantial parchment in both parents.
It is also very interesting that cross between Shiraz and other two snow pea varieties (Oregon Sugar Pod and Sweet Horizon) have not produced any parchmented pods in F2 generation. So the problem probably is in Golden Sweet. And there might be also some other genes responsible for pod parchment apart from P and V:
"In addition to the major genes, we have observed quantitative differences in pod fiber that probably are the result of uncharacterized minor genes." (In: Plant Breeding Reviews, Volume 21.) There might be other minor fiber genetics, but I would need to look at the JIC PGENE database to find out. Their website has changed recently, but they are a very good resource. data.jic.ac.uk/pgene/Default.asp?ID=340According to a pea breeding video on YouTube about snap peas there is some difference between ppVV and PPvv. Here is the photo from that slide. openwetware.org/wiki/Pea_Database_Collaboration_Project/Pea_Genetics  Based on my own palate I did not like Shiraz as it seemed like some sort of fiber was still present to me. Same with Golden Sweet. Not sure which Genes in each. Though I do remember seeing the constricted pod gene in golden sweet. |
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Post by galina on Jun 23, 2019 3:08:30 GMT -5
Welcome Marek. I have often wondered about fibre. My ppvv x ppvv crosses show different fibre too. A little bit of fibre is not a bad thing because some of my pods are looking very bent and twisted. With a little more fibre they are straighter and prettier. I love very large mangetout peas (snow peas) and they definitely look better straighter.
Going from no fibre to fibre is one of those mutations that can just happen. A throwback to a more original state. And I am convinced that when we cross two varieties deliberately, it is a stimulus also for mutation. I have seen a natural mutation from no fibre to partially fibrous in Schweizer Riesen (with mature pods 'ballooning'). I also believe that there are many effects which are not yet discovered, which come to the fore if we cross two pea varieties or when we grow a pea variety in a new location with very different climate.
Once of the recurring themes I get when crossing a yellow pea with a purple pea is a very pale green variant. And I also get the same darkening effect on mature pods, especially mangetout pods. My red shelling pods stay properly red. Why this should be, I do not know.
I was really surprised that you get only so few red or partially red ones from a huge F2 population. Either I have been lucky but my ratio on a much smaller (and not statistically significant!) F2 population is probably one in four. I find it very easy to get red, but very difficult to get a fully covering red.
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Post by galina on Jun 23, 2019 3:27:29 GMT -5
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Post by philagardener on Jun 23, 2019 6:04:18 GMT -5
Those are looking really nice, Galina!
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