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Post by galina on Jul 6, 2019 3:07:13 GMT -5
@ philagardener, Thank you!
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Post by Rebsie on Aug 10, 2019 7:01:52 GMT -5
![]() Hello folks, 1) I got 86 partly or almost fully red podded plants in the F2 generation. The problem is truly red coloured are only very young pods on each plant, as the older and more matured pods always turn purple. I think the reason behind is colouring of Golden Sweet pods. Because truly yellow pods of this variety are only the young pods while the older pods seem to be more green than yellow. So as yellow turns green in the cross between Golden Sweet and Shiraz the resulting colour affected by anthocyanins turns from red to purple. I think the solution might be to replace the Golden Sweet with another yellow podded variety with more stable yellow in its pods. Is there any such a variety? Or is my line of Golden Sweet just not enough yellow? 2) I expected all the pods in the cross will be without parchment as both parents Shiraz and Golden Sweet are snow peas and crossing ppvv x ppvv should always give ppvv, shouldn´t it? So I was surprised to find out many pods in the F2 generation have the parchment inside the pods. Do you have any idea how is it possible?
1) Yes, there is a common issue with red-podded peas turning purple as they mature, and you're right – it is caused by the yellow pod turning more green. You can see this trait quite clearly in Golden Sweet – the yellow pods turn progressively more green as they age, and it passes this same tendency down to its offspring. It's possible that there are other yellow-podded peas which stay yellow for longer, but I don't know of any ... it seems to be part of the nature of yellow-podded peas to mature to green. That said, I had some red-podded peas turn up in an F4 batch this year which kept their yellow base colour right through to maturity, and therefore kept their beautiful red colour up to a very late stage – far longer than my original red-podded peas did. These F4 plants are derived from exactly the same cross as my other red-podded peas, Golden Sweet x Carruthers' Purple Podded. I've no idea what genes are involved in making them stay more yellow – I just got lucky! But anyway it should give you hope, because it shows it is possible for the offspring of Golden Sweet to stay yellow for longer. Not common, but possible! 2) This has already been answered, but I'll add my agreement to what's been discussed. Golden Sweet is not a true mangetout (snow) pea. It's a semi-mangetout, which means you can eat the pods when they're young but they will develop a bit of parchment as they mature. There are two genes involved in getting completely fibreless pods, and I would guess Golden Sweet only has one of them. I haven't tried Shiraz – I bought a packet of seeds this year as a trial but didn't get round to sowing them – but just from looking at photos of it I suspect it might be the same. It doesn't look to me like a truly fibreless variety. When a pod is completely free from parchment you will usually see the peas bulging through the wall of the pod as they develop. As they get to full size the pod will tend to bend and buckle, as it has no fibre to keep it flat. I suspect that this is the reason why many commercial varieties of edible-podded peas are not fully edible. From a commercial point of view, the buckled and distorted pods are probably considered undesirable and unattractive, so the seed companies prefer to develop a variety which has a little bit of parchment in it, to keep its shape. I know from experience though that this trait which makes the pods buckled and 'ugly' also makes them exquisitely lovely to eat, raw and straight off the plant. Yum yum. |
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Post by Rebsie on Aug 10, 2019 12:14:05 GMT -5
Those look great, Galina! That's a beautiful dark red. |
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Post by imgrimmer on Aug 10, 2019 17:44:06 GMT -5
I haven't tried Shiraz – It doesn't look to me like a truly fibreless variety. It isn`t a true mangetout variety. I was quite disappointed when I grew it. You can eat it when really young but there are better varieties. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 10, 2019 23:13:53 GMT -5
I haven't tried Shiraz – It doesn't look to me like a truly fibreless variety. It isn`t a true mangetout variety. I was quite disappointed when I grew it. You can eat it when really young but there are better varieties. Yes. With some luck I got someone from the UK to send me some and I also was very disappointed. Very fibery. Honestly I think golden sweet tasted better than shiraz. The best purple snow pea I have is Midnight Snow and was bred by Dan Quickert of the old website purplepeas.net (waybackmachine still has it). It actually is a very nice snow pea with little fiber. I've been meaning to use it in some crosses but I have not yet. I grew out some seed to share this year. I think I'm gonna grow it more often. flic.kr/p/2gizoTkflic.kr/p/2giyPk7Red pod. flic.kr/p/2giySPwYellow pod that I thought had the orange-pod gene. Not the yellow extending effect I was hoping for though. Hard to tell in the photo. I need a better camera that doesn't wash out color. Another one. flic.kr/p/2gizp6Qflic.kr/p/2gizpgQflic.kr/p/2giySDbAnd 2 of Midnight Snow. flic.kr/p/2giz53qflic.kr/p/2gUuQPs(P.s. Rebsie, you might want to check out the new open source plant breeding forum OSSI). |
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Post by Rebsie on Aug 11, 2019 12:43:06 GMT -5
(P.s. Rebsie, you might want to check out the new open source plant breeding forum OSSI). I see what you mean. It does look very good! |
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Post by steve1 on Aug 13, 2019 22:17:25 GMT -5
Parchment inside the pods is probably an ancestral trait. Probably mutations have knocked it out in two varieties but in different places. When both varieties are crossed variety A does the first part of the trait and B the last part and you've got parchment again. Some mutations are also extremely susceptible to back mutation. As far as I know there are two genes responsible for parchment named P and V. Simultaneous presence of P and V (PPVV, PpVV, PpVv) conditions normal parchmented pod. If P or V are present alone wihout the other (PPvv, Ppvv or ppVV, ppVv) then the parchment is partial. To have truly snow pea without any parchment you need both p and v. So when crossing two snow pea varieties one should always cross ppvv with ppvv and always get ppvv which is pure snow pea. But my experience does not verify the assumption. So in my view there are two possible explanations:
1) Shiraz or Golden sweet are not truly snow peas and at least one of the varieties has partial parchment (P or V).
2) There is other gene responsible for parchment apart from P and V.
Do you agree? Or is there any other explanation?
Hi Marekkvapil, most snows and snaps are either PPvv or ppVV. Le and V are a short distance apart on chromosome 5, so linkage is at play here. You would have expected to find your F1 as parchmented as well.
You can have perfectly good snows and snaps with a homozygous recessive complement of either parchment type. In fact the Sugar Snap varieties I tested via staining and test crosses were all low parchment with only one recessive homozygous set. Hope that helps.
Steve
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Post by steve1 on Aug 14, 2019 6:37:50 GMT -5
There are two genes involved in getting completely fibreless pods, and I would guess Golden Sweet only has one of them. I haven't tried Shiraz – I bought a packet of seeds this year as a trial but didn't get round to sowing them – but just from looking at photos of it I suspect it might be the same. It doesn't look to me like a truly fibreless variety. When a pod is completely free from parchment you will usually see the peas bulging through the wall of the pod as they develop. Here's a link to a picture of Shiras that I grew 4 or 5 years ago. Parchment +++. www.dropbox.com/s/03alluqvrzwdonf/Shiras.jpg?dl=0 They were grown in a tunnel with temps hitting the mid 30's C, but these were pretty inedible at that size. Flat, without seed development they were just ok. Despite the parchment the test cross I did pointed to a vv genotype. My opinion is that there appears to be varying expression of parchment with the single recessive homozygous gene (perhaps due to modifying genes) and that there is probably a significant environment effect too, and as P and V are heat shock proteins high temperature probably adds significantly to parchment formation in some lines. Also, looking back at some of the staining I did for parchment - in the sugar snap I grew the suture parchement of the PPvv phenotype was probably less that .75 mm from the pod suture until it finished. It also broke easily, as the parchent formed on the diagonal on the endocarp. I couldnt pick its presence when eating, and assumed when I started a project it was ppvv. In regard to the really bendy pods having no parchment - I'm not convinced. The generally small localized size of the parchment in the pods I looked at (in the superior snow/snap types) would make it hard to cause straight pods. I think I may have posted some of the staining in another thread but happy to repost if people are interested. Golden Podded which I think is what we have here as Golden Sweet, is definately a single parchment gene. ppVV from memory. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 18, 2019 13:51:35 GMT -5
You can have perfectly good snows and snaps with a homozygous recessive complement of either parchment type. In fact the Sugar Snap varieties I tested via staining and test crosses were all low parchment with only one recessive homozygous set. Hope that helps. Steve, can you create a pdf with pictures of a good guide on how we can do our own staining to figure out if our pods are P or V or both? -Andrew |
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Post by steve1 on Aug 19, 2019 0:42:33 GMT -5
You can have perfectly good snows and snaps with a homozygous recessive complement of either parchment type. In fact the Sugar Snap varieties I tested via staining and test crosses were all low parchment with only one recessive homozygous set. Hope that helps. Steve, can you create a pdf with pictures of a good guide on how we can do our own staining to figure out if our pods are P or V or both? -AndrewSure. Just beware Phloroglucinol is not the nicest of chemicals, as is the HCL it's mixed with. Also, worth noting that this technique does not work with pea pods containing anthocyanins as the precursors of anthocyanins or the anthocyanins themselves cause everthing to be stained purple. That was a pain to find out. It was useful to me in that I could infer the genotypes of the parents and know what was segregating within what crosses. Rasmussons paper from 1927 I think, has the classical examples and I used his recipe for the stain. None of my pods were anywhere near as impressively stained as his. I put that down to nearly 100 years of selection against pod parchment or perhaps more elite parents in this respect. The best way might be two get two non anthocyanin lines ( I used Golden Podded/Sweet and Dwarf Sugar Snap) work out those - in my case one was PPvv and the other ppVV. The F1 of those was PpVv and a shelling or inlated pod phenotype as per Mendel. Then, knowing those you can use them as testers on anything you have. If you have only one set of low parchment genes in a line crossing it to both of them will yield low (constricted pod) parchment offspring in one cross and a shelling (inflated dry pod) phenotype in the other. |
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Post by templeton on Sept 16, 2019 3:59:59 GMT -5
Hi guys, back on deck again.
I'm keen to get back into my red-podded projects - got a fridge full of varoius generations, but it is getting a little late in the season for sowing. Have just moved to 2.5 acres of creek soil, so still a lot of work to set up beds - hopefully I'll have time to at least go through the seed store to see what i have. And Rebsie has posted! an inspiration for my breeding projects..
T
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 8, 2020 22:55:56 GMT -5
I just got some unused seed from my red-podded line back in preparation for spring and using them for breeding (they failed taste tests, but were good growers and nice dwarf habit in Maine). I've taken what I have and selected out the most wrinkled seeds I can. I'm hoping that they may have more sugar genes in the seed which would help contribute to flavor. I also found several oddities in the batch that have reddish or purple seeds. A trait known to be in golden sweet, but I can't recall seeing it in the reds. (Wonder if they might be crossed seed with biskopens or just environmentally purple for one generation only). I selected them as well. I plan on starting these all in trays and selecting out of these if possible for hyper tendrils. I saw a few plants last couple of seasons with red pods AND hyper-tendrils! Im planning on crossing the best of this line with Dan Quickerts legacy 'Midnight Snow'. I'm still sad I have not been able to share this variety more widely. It's my best purple snow pea. By crossing Midnight Snow with my red I hope to keep in all the relevant dominant and co-dominant purple genes (hopefully in homozygous pairs) and only need a second generation for yellow (and thus red pods to segregate back out). Hopefully speed breeding to obtain an excellent red podded snow line (with hyper tendrils and sweet taste and good flavor). I think its better to cross a red with a purple than a red with a yellow. Though anything is better than crossing a red with a green. If you have any superior yellow lines those might be okay to use. But a superior purple (still rare) would be better. Can't wait to plant in March.  |
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Post by flowerbug on Jan 9, 2020 9:20:35 GMT -5
i would enjoy hypertendrils and red or purple pods even if it weren't a good pod eating pea as long as the peas worked for dry peas. i'm assuming that anything red or purple pods will have purple or pink flowers. white flowers are ok, but we like purples and pinks here in the gardens. i hope your project works out and yes, waiting for planting here too. |
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Post by philagardener on Jan 10, 2020 6:59:02 GMT -5
flowerbug , Have you grown Alan Kapular's Sugar Magnolia? I haven't tried them for dried peas but the young pods were great and the plant is amazing to look at.
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Post by flowerbug on Jan 11, 2020 2:00:35 GMT -5
flowerbug , Have you grown Alan Kapular's Sugar Magnolia? I haven't tried them for dried peas but the young pods were great and the plant is amazing to look at.
i haven't seen those before. will look for them and give them a try if i can get some. thanks! |
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