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Post by philagardener on Apr 3, 2018 21:24:05 GMT -5
It seems that hyper-tendrils (Semi-leafless) is on chromosome 1. It looks like one of the purple pod genes is also on chromosome 1. Therefore it makes sense that you do not see many purple podded peas with hypertendrils. Genes often sort independently, even on the same chromosome. Anyone have a guess at how many centimorgans long chromosome 1 is in peas? About 150 centimorgans, according to figure 4 of nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.0028-646X.2001.00302.x (free access) Pur and af are located on chromosome 1 of that map, too. Recombination between those loci would be very likely, given their separation, but both traits are complex. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 4, 2018 11:00:33 GMT -5
Wow that's a good find. My (perhaps naive) opinion about centimorgans is that anything over 50 is essentially sorting independently? |
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Post by diane on Apr 4, 2018 11:02:38 GMT -5
So, Keen, all those traits on chromosome 0 are just sort of floating around independently, or awaiting an assigned place?
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Post by walt on Apr 4, 2018 13:18:19 GMT -5
Wow that's a good find. My (perhaps naive) opinion about centimorgans is that anything over 50 is essentially sorting independently. You're right, Joseph. |
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Post by philagardener on Apr 4, 2018 18:24:39 GMT -5
Correct - if A and C are 50 centimorgans, or more, apart, they will behave as if they are being inherited independently (i.e. 50% recombination per generation, behaving as if they were on randomly assorting chromosomes). You can't get more random than random, so recombination maxes out at 50%
Now consider three loci (A,B,C), each 30 centimorgans apart, in that order. A will show linkage to B, but not C. B will show linkage to both A and C. C will show linkage to B but not A. So just because A and C are inherited independently (they are 60 centimorgans apart) doesn't preclude them from being on the same chromosome (linkage group). In this way it is possible to order and locate loci over intervals larger than 50 centimorgans.
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Post by bellamella on Apr 5, 2018 4:54:50 GMT -5
Hello everybody!
I have lost a bit contact with the thread lately and I am happy to see, that "peawise" there has been movement.
I would like to know of all the "red podded pea crosser"s what behaviour their crosses show in terms of stability. My red podded crosses are segregating madly and I am so frustrated about that, that I am thinking of dropping them. The F4 last year was spinning off many many variants and very little red podded specimens (one in 10 maybe). I have not seen this in other crosses.
I do not defoliate the flowers since a couple of years but just fold the petals back and strip the stamens out of the flowers, this way the crosses catch with a high percentage. But the size of the stamens and petals vary a lot from variety to variety and also the maturation gets a lot earlier with rising heat and dryness so that the crosses tend to be harder to make, when it gets hot.
Thanks for the pea pouches - I have tried tea infusion bags with a wire zipper - that works against pea beetle and deer and they just rip apart if the pod grows too large. But if it rains a lot the absorbed water keeps the pod a bit moister, what I do not fancy and I hope that "fly screen" variant will not do this.
Joyful gardening
bellamella
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 5, 2018 9:46:32 GMT -5
So, Keen, all those traits on chromosome 0 are just sort of floating around independently, or awaiting an assigned place? Well i could be wrong but i was under the impression that "chromosome 0" or "Loci 0" was basically another chromosome and started the numbering with zero instead of one. Makes it a little confusing but that is what i was interpreting this as. You'll notice in the spreadsheet i made the highest number anything ever got to was chromosome 7 so the range was 0-7, and since peas have 8 chromosomes it sorta makes sense. But again i could be wrong but i think that is what i going on. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 5, 2018 9:57:14 GMT -5
Hello everybody! I have lost a bit contact with the thread lately and I am happy to see, that "peawise" there has been movement. I would like to know of all the "red podded pea crosser"s what behaviour their crosses show in terms of stability. My red podded crosses are segregating madly and I am so frustrated about that, that I am thinking of dropping them. The F4 last year was spinning off many many variants and very little red podded specimens (one in 10 maybe). I have not seen this in other crosses. I do not defoliate the flowers since a couple of years but just fold the petals back and strip the stamens out of the flowers, this way the crosses catch with a high percentage. But the size of the stamens and petals vary a lot from variety to variety and also the maturation gets a lot earlier with rising heat and dryness so that the crosses tend to be harder to make, when it gets hot. Thanks for the pea pouches - I have tried tea infusion bags with a wire zipper - that works against pea beetle and deer and they just rip apart if the pod grows too large. But if it rains a lot the absorbed water keeps the pod a bit moister, what I do not fancy and I hope that "fly screen" variant will not do this. Joyful gardening bellamella Hi Bellamella, welcome back! I think the red-podded peas i have now segregate very little and have good red coloring. The seed i originally got from Joseph was i think F5 or F6 and even then it was still segregating madly. But i would encourage you not to give up necessarily. Perhaps the best method would be to backcross what you have now to a good purple podded pea (ideally a purple snow or snap pea). All of the three purple genes are dominant but in my experience they behave more like a co-dominant or semi-dominant and i kinda believe that in order to get a good red pod you actually need these dominant genes to be homozygous for good covering and little segregation. So to combine that with edibility genes such as "p" and/or "v" and "n" if you want a snap type it gets complicated fast! But like joseph say's, if you start with good parents, generally you end with good things. So use what you can to get there one step at a time if you need to. I'm not sure how the others are doing on the red podded pea project, but i thought several people around the globe were doing the same. I'm not sure how far along templeton got in AU or who else was trying. I think Joseph lost all his original seed for it, but i sent him and ethin some of my selections last fall. So hopefully they can grow and trial what I've selected and see what they think. I'm pretty sure mine is a snap type, but it is really small and sorta flat-ish. I really think it could be improved, but if nothing else it will make good breeding material.\ yeah i find making crosses in the morning when it is cool is best, and early in the season. Heat affects pea pollen for sure. nice with the teabag covers! i use the flowers themselves in a covering to protect the pollen. (http://alanbishop.proboards.com/post/121073/thread) |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 5, 2018 10:06:25 GMT -5
Genes often sort independently, even on the same chromosome. I wasn't saying that they don't. I was just implying that it could theoretically be slightly more difficult depending on how close they are on that chromosome and therefore would not segregate with Mendelian ratios. But i think even the tightest of linkage can be broken. It's just a statistics game at that point i would think. |
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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2018 17:23:12 GMT -5
My reds did get mostly stable at around F5 I think.
Didn't continue this austral spring, and I haven't sown this autumn either, since I got a nasty black spot disease last autumn/winter. I've re-assessed my breeding aims too. I grew a semi-commercial crop with a nearby grower - while the local restaurants were interested in the purples, it was eating quality that they focused on, going for my big yellow snow Joni's Taxi rather than my three purple snows, even tho they were a bit reluctant to put a pale yellow pea on the plate.
So I'm thinking I will cross my red and purple snows back to Jonis to get tender huge podded peas. I'm also thinking that production and plant size is important, so double flowers and short plants seem to be desirable too. Yeah, I really needed another 5 year project...
T
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Post by troppo on Apr 16, 2018 18:08:34 GMT -5
My reds did get mostly stable at around F5 I think. Didn't continue this austral spring, and I haven't sown this autumn either, since I got a nasty black spot disease last autumn/winter. I've re-assessed my breeding aims too. I grew a semi-commercial crop with a nearby grower - while the local restaurants were interested in the purples, it was eating quality that they focused on, going for my big yellow snow Joni's Taxi rather than my three purple snows, even tho they were a bit reluctant to put a pale yellow pea on the plate. So I'm thinking I will cross my red and purple snows back to Jonis to get tender huge podded peas. I'm also thinking that production and plant size is important, so double flowers and short plants seem to be desirable too. Yeah, I really needed another 5 year project... T Good to hear that your getting some commercial interest with your peas T. I've got a similar project going where I have a nice double-podded purple snow with semi-short stature (based upon Oregon Giant) that I'm crossing with multiple large-podded, tender snows and a very sweet snap pea selection (all green) to try and get larger, sweeter, more tender purple-pods. Its amazing how quickly a breeding project can double/triple in size in one season. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 17, 2018 0:02:32 GMT -5
Yeah. Cool projects you two. I'm moving in that direction myself.
Trying to make a focus on edibility for chefs like sweetness.
But also trying to think about what traits farmers or home gardeners might want like dwarf plants, semi-leafless hyper-tendrils, and snap pods, or double/triple pods.
Trying to think of interesting crosses and i have several in mind. P.s. T, i am trialing all of your peas you sent. Made room. Joni's Taxi and the three purples. Be interesting to compare them to the yellows and purples that i planted this year of which i only planted wrinkled seeds (hoping for more sweetness).
But i decided i am going to trial more snap varieties to see what ones do like my climate. In general snap peas have been a bust here minus the unusual sugar magnolia which is flatter than most snaps AND a tall pea.
On that end the red snap i selected was/is also a flat snap as well since it is descended from Joseph's cross with sugar magnolia. The color is nice but i don't like how small the pod is or how flat it is. Im gonna use it as breeding stock to both backcross with a good purple snow pea (probably Midnight Snow) and the good yellow snow peas. I may abandon the red snap in favor for a really spectacular red snow pea with large pods instead.
Im also planning to try and cross the purple seeded pea I'm working on into a yellow snow pea. That would be cool i think. A nice yellow pod that had bright purple seeds when dry. Those two traits are on the same locus so no telling how easy cross over will be. But hoping its fine.
P.s. forgot to mention that i have no idea about living arangements later this year as I'm getting married. Most likeley an apartment for this first year so likeley this is my last decent growing for a few years. Another reason i wanted to do as much as i can.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 17, 2018 12:41:28 GMT -5
P.s. forgot to mention that i have no idea about living arangements later this year as I'm getting married. Most likeley an apartment for this first year so likeley this is my last decent growing for a few years. Another reason i wanted to do as much as i can. Congratulations. Been nice working with you. |
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Post by steev on Apr 26, 2018 1:49:17 GMT -5
Hope to see you back breeding more than humans ASAP.
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