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Post by extremegardener on Apr 6, 2009 9:34:41 GMT -5
Michel was asking about couve tronchuda, Portugese cabbage - the pak choy of the oleracas. I have previously only grown it from May-June sowings, but I am going to try June and August sowings this year, because I am most interested in exploring its potential for over-wintering, and any perennial tendencies. The varieties I have trialed had better frost resistance in the fall than most brassicas, though they did not over-winter here. I think there may be that potential if a large enough population is grown out. Redwood City Seeds (Craig Dremann) used to offer the following varieties: Lombarda Portugesa de Valhascos Espanhola Gloria de Portugal Penca de Chaves Pencuda da Povoa (Village Heading) They're only offering one now, a generic couve tronchuda. Over the years I did not keep good notes on these (that thud is me kicking myself) but I can say there is quite a bit a variation between the varieties. Pencuda da Povoa was one I had singled out. I believe it has especially thick ribs and interesting color contrast - light/white leaf ribs with dark green outer leaf (maybe even reddish in the fall) . The plants are quite beautiful, I think, and culinary-wise, very good stir fried or in soups, stews. Growth habit - robust - primitive qualities. I have purchased a variety called Savoy from Gourmet Seeds International www.gourmetseed.com/ this year to trial, and this past winter I was pretty good and inventoried my seed stash. I have have seed dated 1995 for the 6 varieties mentioned above from Redwood. I don't hold out much hope for it, though it has been stored well. There's not enough seed for a germination test separate from growing it out. I'm definitely going to give Pencuda da Povoa a last shot in June. If anyone wants to gamble on any of the other varieties, I will be glad to send the full packet(s) - PM me. Otherwise I'm going to try to germinate them all at planting time... I suppose it would be good to give Craig Dremann a call to see if it's still possible to get these.... I'd love to hear anybody else's experiences with CTs... |
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Post by hiven on Apr 6, 2009 15:29:25 GMT -5
I am growing Couve Tronchuda this year but mine are still in seedlings stage so can't comment it at all but would like to hear what other would say about them... will monitor this thread and thanks for bringing it up  . |
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Post by canadamike on Apr 6, 2009 19:10:54 GMT -5
I would normally have jumped on the offer, but my trial plate is pretty full right now, I have enough info to collate, store and share for now. pictures will be the dessert on top of the full meal.
Why don't you freeze the seeds? I have no doubt cabbage can survive that number of years,even many more, depending on storage techniques.
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Post by extremegardener on Apr 7, 2009 9:46:27 GMT -5
Hi Hiven & Michel!
Where did you get your seed - any variety info? It's too bad this is a not very well known brassica - most of the seed companies don't seem to even know there are varieties of it...
Michel - you're giving me more confidence with this, so maybe I won't blow my whole wad so to speak. I will freeze some of them and just do the all or nothing on one or two varieties.
I also have seed for these varieties from 1987, but that's really really pushing it I think. (I'm such a pack rat)
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Post by extremegardener on Apr 7, 2009 9:48:29 GMT -5
Hi Hiven & Michel!
Where did you get your seed - any variety info? It's too bad this is a not very well known brassica - most of the seed companies don't seem to even know there are varieties of it...
Michel - you're giving me more confidence with this, so maybe I won't blow my whole wad so to speak. I will freeze some of them and just do the all or nothing on one or two varieties.
I also have seed for these varieties from 1987, but that's really really pushing it I think. (I'm such a pack rat)
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Post by ceara on Apr 7, 2009 15:38:31 GMT -5
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Post by extremegardener on Apr 8, 2009 19:35:48 GMT -5
Wow ceara, that video is great! That's exactly what the Pencuda da Povoa is like, a small loose head, big outer leaves, and same coloring - rather different than the other photos I've seen for couve tronchuda.
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Post by ceara on Apr 8, 2009 20:32:57 GMT -5
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. It's an old video series about Victorian Kitchen Gardens, the varieties they grew and the methods used for all sorts of things. The old timer in the video died a few years back.
What I want to know, when he was talking about the "dual purpose" of the tronchuda... what are the dishes that could be made with the thick mid rib stem? Chop, shred, boil to death, bubble & squeak? lol
I think the video came out in the late 90s and he was saying the couve tronchuda seeds were almost impossible to find even then. There's another scene where he's calling seed merchants trying to locate a cardoon and the tronchuda and no one had them. I think the seeds they obtained to make that video series was given to them by the Kew seed bank in the UK but not entirely sure. I'd recognize the building if I saw a photo of it but can't remember it's name or where it is located in Britain.
I'm tempted to grow tronchuda myself! I love cabbage! Except when it's turned into sauerkraut - yuck! But I have enough on my plate for this growing season. I'll be hunting down some seeds for 2010 though! *crosses fingers*
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Post by extremegardener on Apr 9, 2009 9:28:01 GMT -5
I think the Victorians probably abused it badly culinary wise, though the thick rib would have held up better than other cabbages to boiling (yuk), and combined roasting and frying - so I'll bet it they did like it for bubble & squeak . I really dislike overcooked veg.
The rib is not tough, and quite succulent, really. The outer leaves are big enough so that you can pick one or two from the plant and have all you need for a meal (2 people), a nice feature for home gardeners . Sometimes the outer edges of the outer leaves are a little tough and I cut away some of that. To prepare, I slice the ribs thinly across the grain, then stir fry, or add to soups, stews. For heavier leafy veg like CT, I add it to the hot stuff at the very end of cooking so they're just warmed through and softened slightly.
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Post by ceara on Apr 9, 2009 10:43:44 GMT -5
Dang you are making me want to grow it now! hehe I'd have to dig up more turf to make room though.
I was thinking maybe steam the bigger leaves a bit to soften and make giant cabbage rolls and put a little tomato sauce and parmesan cheese on top.
All this talk of food on the forum is making me hungry! *drool*
I agree with you about the Victorians. They really did overcook some vegetables and did not like tomatoes raw! Imagine that. Silly Victorians!
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Post by canadamike on Apr 9, 2009 11:46:46 GMT -5
One of your frenchie counterparts would much appreciate to know what ''CT'' stands for, my dear extreme ;D I do have some tronchuda cabbage if I am not mistaken, I got some cuttings from a french friend. I don't know anything about the ''couve'' bit though... Any enlightened british member to tell us if it is a special strain of tronchuda or just a UK epiteth added to it by some of her majesty's subjects? Michael: any tronchuda rhum recipe in your bag of tricks?  |
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Post by ceara on Apr 9, 2009 13:17:22 GMT -5
One of your frenchie counterparts would much appreciate to know what ''CT'' stands for couve tronchuda! ;D |
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Post by extremegardener on Apr 9, 2009 20:19:44 GMT -5
Ok - Michel - this just proves that you are a dangerous guy - you asked about couve tronchuda and look where it's led us!
Anyway, I spoke with Craig Dremann today at Redwood City Seeds (www.ecoseeds.com - that's where I got the old seed I have in my stash). The seeds all come from Portugal, and all those varieties (and more) are still available, however since 9/11 he has not been able to import them into the US because of the phytosanitary certificate requirements. Portugal will only issue the certificates for a minimum of a kilo of seed per variety (I asked, and that's a couple of hundred dollars per variety.) There's not enough interest for him to be able to order that quantity for all those varieties, so he's only carrying the one, Portugesa, which happens to be the national vegetable variety of Portugal.
Couve Tronchudas are all Portugese in origin, developed from the wild brassica oleraca v.tronchuda which still grows along the coast line. The variety Portugesa is the most primitive, and never heads. The other varieties are more refined. Couve tronchudas are the most widely adaptable of the brassicas. They grow well in Africa and Brazil as well as in Arctic climates, and tolerate salt.
OK, so now we've gotta start a movement to get American and Canadian gardeners clamoring for all the varieties of couve tronchuda so Craig can offer them again. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can grow some seed here. Anybody heading to Portugal in the future?
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Post by ottawagardener on Apr 9, 2009 20:34:19 GMT -5
Next time I go to Spain (close by), I am going to raid their seed racks. If I have to drive to Portugal so be it!
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Post by ceara on Apr 10, 2009 7:15:47 GMT -5
I have a friend who's mother lives in Spain. Maybe I can wrangle something! And if memory serves correct I have another friend from B.C. who has relatives living in Portugal.
I will fire off some emails and see what they say.
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