Propigating Orchard and Nursery stock from seed...

[sandbar]

OK, another question: Will any "standard" (not dwarf or semi-dwarf) fruit tree bear true from seed?

[castanea]

Jan 8, 2010 22:29:45 GMT -5 sandbar said:

OK, another question: Will any "standard" (not dwarf or semi-dwarf) fruit tree bear true from seed?

Usually not

[mjc]

Full sized or nearly so...

And no, 'standard' size trees won't run true any more than dwarf or semi-dwarf.

Most apples and pears require a second tree for pollination. Some are not only self sterile, but require a different variety, too. Out of the several thousand apple varieties there may be a couple dozen that will run true...and even they won't in all cases. Peaches and other stone fruit are a bit less variable and have better chances of running true especially the older varieties that were the backbone of the commercial orchards, before the modern hybrids came on the scene (standard varieties, not standard size). Many of those, like the Elberta peach, still grown today.

As far as the rootstock. It's not really anything special. Commercial growers may start them in trays/pots but they will move them to a prepared bed...generally one that has easily dug soil. They are grown for a year or two...either in pots the whole time or in pots for one growing season and then in the bed for the next. Some places just direct plant to the bed...

I haven't seen seeds for any dwarf/semi-dwarf rootstock...I do know some of it is clonal and some of it is under either PVP or a patent. Some crab apples are used for rootstock.

[grunt]

Quince is good rootstock for apples and pears.

[Alan]

There are just a handful of apple and pear varieties that will "come true" if they are grown in an orchard of only that variety and are not self infertile.

Wolf River and Antonovoka (spelling) are two of those, there are others but I cannot remember the names of them.


Bartlet and standard sekle pear will also come true from seed.


Most rootstock is air layered to produce plants but I have read and seen seed available for a dwarfing rootstock, most probably a crabapple that is fairly stable would be my guess.


My nursery will most likely be filed planted. As soon as I start seeing those precious little seeds out in the refridgerator (several thousand of many varieties thanks to all of my friends here) poping their little heads out I will begin laying them down in rows in the nursery, labled by the known parent variety, and growing them out for a year or two before selling or transplanting the many 1,000's of Hip-Gnosis "numbers" that I will produce. Should be fun!!!!!!! I encourage anyone who reads this with any curiosity at all, despite what experts say, to plant fruit trees and see what you get, we need the diversity.

[mjc]

One of the pieces of apple literature I stumbled on once listed about 2 dozen varieties that in a block planting or some sort of grouping of them so they were the only ones around, that would come true...and this is out of a couple thousand named apples. One thing that did stick with me, though, was that all of the ones on that list are truly 'old' apples...there were a few that I know are old European (three or four British, one French and one that was said to be Roman...the rest were 'New World' varieties...mostly US, but a couple Canadian ones).

Here's a list of 'self fertile' apples...

www.homeorchardsociety.org/article/30/

Not all of them would come true because the cultivated apple is a essentially an F1 hybrid (or commonly many varieties planted close together so all sorts of crossing occurs), but some of that list will, either because they are old enough to have been seed planted and stabilized, are a sport/mutation from a 'wild' apple or something along those lines. Of course to have a real good chance of coming true, they would need to be isolated/monocropped.

Along with Antonovka and Wolf River...the old fashioned, unimproved McIntosh shows up and a few of the old British cider apples.

I think a lot of work hasn't been done in this area because it takes too long to see the results. But, if the goal is lots of diversity and in about 5 to 7 years culling a lot of mediocre or less trees (or using them for top working) you can get good seedling apples. But apples are like all the other plants, they follow the same principles when dealing with genetics...just on a much longer time scale.

One of the reasons I am starting rootstock is because I've got several outstanding seedling trees that have cropped up here over the years that I want to increase the number of growing trees, including one that puts out absolutely phenomenal apples...it has never been pruned nor do I thin it...they are large (softball sized, roughly), very flavorful and without any spraying, shows no signs of anything, including much in the way of insect attacks, they are also a fairly long keeping apple.

[pugs]

Luther Burbank would graft scion of his seedlings to branch tips to get them to fruit much quicker. That way he could cut years off of his development time. Also, he could then do other crosses and start a new generation.

Pugs

[johno]

Jan 10, 2010 1:37:20 GMT -5 grunt said:

Quince is good rootstock for apples and pears.

That's good info to have. How dwarf does it make them?

MJC, any chance of getting seeds from those no-spray apples of yours?

[mjc]

Maybe this fall. This past year I had a grand total of 2 apples from about 25 trees...a late freeze wiped them all out (and some of the trees were very heavy)...but if you have some rootstock handy or something you can work it on to I can grab you some scion wood.

[johno]

I appreciate the offer, but I don't have. I've been planting apple cores all fall to try to find at least one or two sprayless trees of my own. Next fall would be great! Cedar apple rust is a huge problem here.

[canadamike]

Few men in Canada have grown more different fruit trees than Dr. Ken Taylor, who initiated me to fruit trees almost 20 years ago, nor have created as many new cultivars, including seedless grapes for the north.

I met Ken last winter, and he told me that 6 years ago, when I met him for the last time, he tought he knew trees, now he knows way more.

2 great things came out of our last discussion:

1) He tried WITH SUCCESS, to find a shortcut on fruit production by grafting tips of seedlings to similar seedlings decapitated and used as rootstock.

Basically, you have 4 pips from one apple that give you 4 seedlings, cut all the tips and graft them on the seedling at the right or left or whatever. Ken says the trees start acting like small mature trees.

2) Where there is snow cover in winter, like here in Ontario, we can grow ANY reasonnably winter resistant fruit tree ( let's say good for Indiana or the north of Arkansas or wherever there is some winter that is kind of cold) by trimming them and treating them as low bushes, or cordons on a wire that is low enough to be covered by snow, as under snow it is hardly colder than minus 5 celsius or 23 Farhenheit. Forget our minus 40 weather ;D

I noticed something that relates to this in real life: Japanese quince bushes surviving here when covered in snow and giving fruits, while our minimum weather does not permit them to do so, barely survive.

There is still much to learn.

MJC, could I have a few scions of the MJC apple? I'd gladly provide you with otyhers to reciprocate.

I would much prefer growing a friend's apple than a corporate one

[mjc]

I'll be in the chat later...we'll talk about the apple then?

[Alan]

Once I get this Kazakistani material grafted and increased I will send it out to anyone who wants some. These are "elite" lines which should require little to absolutely no spraying and should be good in cold climates considering their home country.

[fruitnut]

I used to grow a little veggie garden, some raspberries & strawberries in-town, but having made the big move out to the farm two years ago i was suddenly very interested fruititng trees/shrubs and what one could actually grow for yourself up here.

I started with seed and had my first batch germinate in spring '09. The seed sources I've used are close by: the dominion arboretum (black walnuts, Prunus sinensis, and Prunus virginiana), "gardens north" and also Windmill Point farms Permaculture seed (Ken Taylor). I collected seed for grapes, plums (natives and a manchurian variety), cherries, goji, kiwi, mulberry and some nuts (heartnut, hazelnut, shagbark hickory), even apricots and pears (I understand some may take 10+yrs to fruit, but we have the space and hopefully the time!) all should tolerate my zone 4 (5A Cdn) conditions. I was able to sow seed both outdoors and in cold storage for the winter and I must say that all Prunus spp germinated much better under cold storage. The nuts however did best outdoors as they germinated later and were not subject to frost-kill. The growth rate the first year was perhaps slow (6" to 1ft) but they were all in soil come winter and are awaiting the arrival of spring to see who made it.

I am curious if anyone else has grown some of these from seed and how much new growth i might expect to see this year. The nuts will go to their permanent locations early in the spring, but i know from last year the local population(deer/rabbits/raccoons) may enjoy munching/uprooting some of these.

Any tips on discouraging woodland visitors?

Any ideas which tolerate transplanting the best?

Thanks, will keep you updated on this year's crop!
Teresa

[rockguy]

"Any tips on discouraging woodland visitors?"
Sung to the tune of "Don't Fence Me IN"
OHhhh give me WIRE, lots of wire, lots of heavy, heavy wire,
Yes fence me innnn...