HIgh desert CORN

[silverseeds]

I didnt want to take over anyone elses threads on corn breeding.....

I originally had decided against growing corn, but now I am hooked. I never would have thought, there are methods and genetics which would make corn low input, even here.....

I might take this in MULTIPLE directions, keep that in mind.....

So heres what Im thinking. I have alans two headed dog..... pretty fast, cool tolerant, and ALOT of genetic diversity, I intend to get Painted mountain..... I have a few others, choosen to trial, for various things. Mostly from native seeds. a short season blue they have vadito blue. Also a flour with AMAZING potential imo, mojave. I think mojave would produce under poor soil conditions with no irrigation for most of you by the way, based on a trial I did with it last year. I have a short corn with multiple stalks, 3-5 ears per plant.... also a short season one of a similar nature from michel.

theres also hopi corn also drought tolerant Id like to get, which can be planted rather deep, so as to be within the damp soil.....

It might be better I look up all the corns I have before I ask this, but if its needed I will go back.

to be honest I dont care if the corn I grow is sweet, or flour or dent or anything, but Id like to select out various types, it just isnt the focus. Im more concerned, with breeding various genepools, for these conditions, needing the least amount of water......, on poor soil.

I have a heavy silty clay, the mojave did well on it, so I know genetics exist for this soil type. I have genetics for other drought tolerant types, and cool tolerant types, so that also exists. Multiple ears on the same plants I find a great attribute, save the biggest of each plant for seed, and eat the rest, etc..... then the hopi corn able to be planted deeply.....Also theres one I found recently also really hardy, super early, and known to handle multiple frosts.

So how picky can I get here? what I mean is, can I just keep crossing these, and selecting, until I find corns with the EXACT, attributes I want..... Theres a few combinations I would find interesting.....

Can I get the great rooting system of the mojave(and drought, and apparently cool night okay to), and couple that with the ability to be planted deeply like the HOPI corns??? those two attributes together would be AMAZING...... then what about that amazing cool tolerance, of that corn I mentioned, and the vast variability of two headed dog, and painted mountian....

Could I then select out a corn, able to be planted DEEP, able to handle my HEAVY soil, VERY drought tolerant, able to handle a few frosts..... multiple tillers, and 3-5 ears per stalk...... and still super early? Heck if so, I might be able to pull off two crops a year.....

So what is my method here?? this is something I am serious about now.... now the first year, if I get them all to tassle at the same time I will have various F!s which are essentially hybrids, right? that isnt the year Id want to start selecting, if I understand this all right..... Did I get that wrong, in relation to corn?? If that is right, I guess Id have to cross it up 2 years before I start my mass selections.....

I figured I could grow all of them together...... then save all the variously crossed seeds..... plant them deep when its really to cold, and select for the trait of being able to be planted deep, then able to be healthy on this heavy soil, and cool tolerance, since the soil is still cold, then its drought tolerance, so Id heavily over plant at first, and select heavily.

ultimately Id like to select out multiple corns. all of them drought tolerant, all of them able to produce on this soil with little or no amendments(yes I amend my beds, but Im thinking larger scale operations here, with as much amending as you need for most corns, thats impossible here, but the mojave corn showed just some extra water is needed. and not much at that)

So can I really get all those ttributes, lined up in various ways I select for? In nearly ANY combination?

It seems it would be easy to make the selections. I mean if I can simply plant the seeds, in moist cool soil a few inches deep, that alone selects for, being able to be planted deep, be able to grow in my heavy soil, and cool tolerance....... All the varieties I want to work with are hardy, or drought tolerant, so all I do is wait to water it when a certain percentage start showing stress. and keep selecting...... So CAN I get all those attributes on the same corn. I mean from what Ive read I can unless I misunderstood something..... I will probably try even if you all tell me I cant, but Id like help forumulating the methods here..... Most I want to do this with are in the 60 to 75 day range, the hopi I think is around 100.

Id love a sweet corn, AND flour and dent types, really. I mean Id like to use corn for various things, so Id like many types, but really I dont care to much, any dried corn can be used as a flour really, and low input grains are a major focus of my efforts. But from what Ive seen alan mention before, when your doing you selection, various kernal types will show up, related to different types of corn, so if I understand this right I could seperate, my corns into various types before I even plant, THEN start selecting for the various attributes Im after??

then once I am getting plants with the basic attributes I like, I keep selecting it over a few more seasons, and for corn thats about it right??

Okay my last question in this regard is numbers..... I know 400 plus is ideal, to keep a variety intact. but Im going to be crossing a pretty diverse bunch here, so what kind of MINIMUM numbers can I work with? I have many other projects I am working on, and want to limit the area devoted to corn, but still want o work on the project over the years..... so how many plants of each type do I need? Lets see, there would be..... atleast.... 5 or 6 maybe 10 varieties involved, although Im not sure if my best route is two or more seperate projects, or one big mass cross, with the differences coming out of the selection, later rather then the differences coming from what went into it.... if that makes sense.

so can I go as little as 50 plants of each variety? when I start my mass selections, Id be planting many multiples of whatever my base is, since the initial selections are likely to weed so many plants out....

but if I have 50 plants of 6 different varieties, is that enough to start?

[canadamike]

Ouf! Loads of questions, I'll start by the end, it would be great if Alan Kapuler could step in...

You need only a few plants of each to make a cross, Although I have used more ( but I got room). Carol Deppe says there is enough heterosis in ONE ear of F-1 corn to start a population.

I'd go bigger, but I would try , in variable corns llike a lot of natives, to have a sample of a few of each color/size/type...you get the idea, to maximise what I'll call ''heterosis'' impact in english, ( frenchie here).

F-2 is where you start to select.

Luther Burbank said that with crossing you can achieve anything with corn. Yes, if you mix all types you'll get all types in loads of different combinations and then you can select for what you want.

I do not think the deep seeding was related to cold, The soil is more moist once you go deeper, scorching sun dehydrates the land from the top down.

Some Hopi would seed 8-10 inches deep I read, I have a strong feeling it was not in clay....

I should have some Meskakie ( wrong spelling I think, it should be Meskwaki) soon, a farmer grew it for me, it is said to have the biggest root system of all if so I'll send you some.

Painted MOuntain is both cold and draught tolerant, I can witness that, I seeded it this year during a draught with cold nights, most of my modern ones did not survived, but it thrived. It is a flour corn with a big germ (proteins).

My version of Astronomy Domine has proven quite draught and weed tolerant too, some did not made it as I did not water NOR weed the plot, which became a jungle of weeds. Survival of the fittest.

It is very very high in proteins, I have isolated ears that have big kernels filled with the germ, which is ( at the not totally dry stage) bigger than sunflower seeds ( the meat).

And please my friend, some teasing us with apparently great corns that you DO NOT NAME ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[silverseeds]

I will go back and name the corns tonight.... when I have time... I didnt intend to imply that the

ability to plant deep went with cool tolerance, but that Id be selecting for both at the same time, because Id purposely plant deep in cool soil. and try to get a cool tolerant, corn able to be planted deep because of hopi genes, and in this heavy soil from the mojave genes...... the cool tolerant corn I have in mind is..... called fishers earliest.

This is the description -----Matures: 70 Days. Montana. Tender, fresh, true-corn flavor combined with earliness and vigor. 5-6'' ears on short 5' plants. 8-12 rows of golden-yellow kernels. Hand selected for decades by talented seedsman Ken Fisher in Belgrade, Montana. A true heirloom treasure. Once survived nine frosts and 2 hail storms between Memorial Day and Labor Day and still produced an eatable corn crop. Once survived a 23 degree F. frost in Idaho on the 4th of July

A few other corns Id have to look up the names.....

so you think I can get the ability to plant deep, from the hopi, AND the ability to grow well in the clay soil from the mojave? Those might be opposing forces Im not sure.....

[happyskunk]

Wow, you guys are getting me excited to grow corn. I just ordered Vadito Blue, Mojave, and others last night and have a couple dozen other varieties. What if instead of selecting out types at F-2 I selected for diverse type that grow well every year and then added in 25% new seed from the best of the best and most interesting of what everyone else is breeding. Then what if I did this for 50 years or so. Why would I want to grow just one type when there are going to be so many great selections people are making and I could grow all of them? Is it a bad idea to mix sweet, flour, flint, dent, and popcorn? I'm just going to go crazy and if it does not work I guess I will have learned from my mistakes. Maybe those Oaxacan green corn sprout I ate were tainted with something. crazy!

[silverseeds]

I wasnt planning on working with corn, but Im rather excited about it now as well.

I was talking to michel about it in the chat, and he was telling me how few plants I can make my initial crosses from. Its really neat, and will enable me to trial and include much more diversity. who knows maybe I will find different corns adapted to drought differently, and get both ways, into my corn..... personally I dont care what type of corn it is, as long as is got a decent taste as a flour.....

Once I get the hardiest, most productive I can, I can work on sweet corns and such.

Happyskunk, youll be more then welcome to seed from what I grow in a few years, if the genetics are interesting to you.... The mojave I grew already, and REALLY recommend it, I think you made a good choice there. We already have various astronomy domine selections from alan, in a couple years, we will have a whole home grown goodness selection, for various climates.... Ive always really liked corn, I just didnt think I could breed the right attributes into the same corn..... especially with as little are aI need to start. Which is good since, Im doing alot of trials of other things next year.....

[Alan]

OK,


a few different ideas to keep in mind here.

You can start with a small population, I would go with at least 20 seeds of each variety you will use planted either in alternating rows, or alternating seed types within the row to get a relatively decent representation of the characteristics you are looking for.

If you are determined to go for cold soil tolerance, the f2 generation, split you seed in half, plant half of it a bit early in cold soil, what emerges is cold tolerant, replant what didn't come up to the rest of your genepool, in coming years you will continue to plant early, selecting the plants that survive to continue to add to the genepool.

The same thing can be done with the deep germinating Hopi seed, planting it deep early in the year in the f2 generation to select for either deep germination in clay soil or for cool soil tolerance.


First season I would plant a fairly large population, 500 to 1,000 plants of your genepool, in, like I said before, alternating rows, at the end of the season your going to see a hodgepodge of types, pick the kernal type, size, and colors you like for the majority of your f2 seed and then add in another 10-20% of the leftover seed from your f1 crop so as to maintain any genetics you might want which may otherwise have been lost.

Some things your looking for may not be mutually exclusive, but that's why we make a genepool, by the end of the f2 season you can select for multiple populations with multiple traits or even add more genetics to the mix if you so want.

Even though Carol Deppe is a genious in my opinion, I prefer to start with a wide genetic base with farm more plants than most would advise even in a genepool, simply for the fact that the chances of ending up with exactly what your looking for are slim to none in a small population, plus your always selecting down from your starting number of types and traits, thus a wide genetic base is always a good way to start, you have more chances of finding what you want in a timely manner and less chances of loosing what you want via limited genetics if that makes any sense.

[silverseeds]

Well growing 100 plants is out of the question right now.....

I always thought of it as your saying, which is among the reasons I thought I could do it, with smaller numbers to start.... I will have that much room in the future.....

But can I start now with smaller numbers anyway? If i understand what Ive read, and what your saying, my only drawback is I might loose something I wanted to keep....

Heres what Ive been thinking. I have 1200plus seed of this mojave corn... I have a few hundred seeds of your two headed dog, and I intend to get painted mountain. I intended to get one pack(50 seeds I think) of native seeds 5 different hopi corns...... seem to be about 90-110 days
and all the higher elevation corns from arid regions that native seeds has.... It turns out to be around 15-20 types...... mostly shorter season, the hopi stuff is the exception on that.....

So I was intending to stagger everything..... I have enough space for maybe 200 plants, easily maybe 400, but Id rather have more room for trials....... I intended to marry each hopi variety with one of the other shorter season ones.... since the hopi is longer seasoned. I was going to stagger a few plants of each variety, and make sure I crossed shorter season to longer etc. This way, I make sure atleast one of each type of hopi plant makes it into a cross.... I will have the left over seed, to work more of it into the mix.... and can always source more since theres no way I could grow out each of them, to continue breeding with it. So this gives you an idea of what I was thinking......

Alan keep in mind, Im half crazy I dont care if it takes the rest of my life.... Id LOVE something workable in a few years, but ultimately the goal is to push the limits as much as possible. Water is my MAIN issue, but the soil as well, since I caan ammend a few garden beds, but in this arid region of low biomass, not easy to ammend large fields. So that is a concern as well, that is where cool tolerance comes in, besides having cool nights, I often have late or early frosts, and the idea of wanting the hopi genetics, is obviously so I can plant with winter melt, trapped half a foot down or more..... I also heard some hopi types have so many tillers they are bushy, this amazes, me, Id be very curious just how bushy..... monsanto claims to have a drought corn able to produce 50 percent more in arid areas...... its possible a bush of corn might be able to beat that? or maybe I can come up with something able to deal with more drought.....

1- so did I get that right smaller will work but larger just gives me more to select from and less chance to loose desirable traits?

2- Ok I know the f2 seed is when I can start making selections, but lets say I crossed the f1 seed with a stable variety, is it f1 again? or if I cross it with another f1 is it a f1 again?

3- In the longer term would be possible to work in attributes from much longer season arid corns from the low desert, and keep it short season?? after I started crossing up the shorter season arid region stuff, I was considering keep a gene pool of continued crosses of drought tolerant corns, everything I could get my hands on, always selecting for drought.....

Might have more ???s later....

[silverseeds]

opps that was supposed to be growing 1000 plants it out of the question now, not 100

[Alan]

Hey again there Silver, no such thing as too many questions.

You can indeed do what you want to do with a smaller population and it will work using the numbers you want to use and the numbers which Michael mentioned above, most of Alan Kapulers corn experiments are done like this I believe.

The only reason I mentioned higher populations is because I tend to be a bit obsessive compulsive and have a bit of room to play with, so I always go with a higher population than what is needed really, but I do think it gives me a bit more to work for and try to select from.

I think you are going in the right direction with what you are thinking and expressing above and I'm glad to see you putting so much thought into this, start with these small populations, take them where you can, if you do end up with too few genetics or end up loosing something you want it can always be added back at a latter time in the breeding process.

And as I said before, I would most certainly select multiple lines out of your work, this is something I've started doing to Astronomy Domine and something that Kapuler did a lot with his purple red lines, and some of those are amazing.

[happyskunk]

I don't know much about corn genetics but on the Bifurcated Carrots blog they say the more times you add genetics by crossing a new variety with a f1 or a f1 with f1 the longer it will take you to separate out stable varieties later on. www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2007/11/seed-saving-dehybridization/

[silverseeds]

Happyskunk, yeah Im sure your right, but what I am getting at, is trying to understand when I can make selections...

If you cross plant a to plant b, you have a hybrid ab. You cant do selections out of ab. but when you grow it out youll get ab, and ba, and Ab, and bA, and all kinds of combos of those two.

So Im trying to understand what happens when you cross a F2 generation with a stable variety, or another F2, from another cross perhaps. Meaning it wasnt 2 ab F2 seed, but a ab, and cd which was different plants. from two seperate crosses. So what happens from two distinct F2s being crossed? Do I have a F1 again where I cant select out? This never made complete sense to me.....

[Alan]

Yes, every time you make a cross you get a new F1. And it does add some time to stabilization, but in a genepool like Astronomy Domine, if you select simply for DTM and sweet kernels you actually retain a genepool, any material added to the genepool could be selected for DTM and kernel type and you would have an open pollinated, but not particularly "Fixed" population which is a genepool.

Lots of ways this can go and corn is complicated.

[pugs]

Alan,

It sounds like you are talking about a new landrace of sweet corn. If I remember correctly, there is quite a bit of variation in a landrace.

Pugs

[Alan]

Hey pugs, Landrace would be correct and is where I'm headed with my Astronomy Domine essentially.

[lmonty]

silverseeds- could please define 'planted deeply' and 'cool soil" (approx temp wise, or at least seasonal time)


reason i am asking is the characteristics you describe are ones i would value too. i believe we entering into an era with less climate stability than our parents saw. one underlying thought in my variety choices has been cold/heat tolerance, and ability to accept some water stress if not downright drought tolerance. breeding for those characteristics is critical to me.

i appreciate the way you define how planting early and deep will already help with the selection process. and how others showed the way to fill in what doesn't grow.

any discussion of how to incorporate or encourage those characteristics is greatly appreciated. its one thing to adapt and baby with mulch, frost cover or extra water a bed or 3 of toms or peppers cause i don't want to do without them-but for mass (for me, anyway, i hope someday to get near an acre in production) plantings of "calorie crops" like taters and corn, grains squash and other root crops, they are going to have to be their own survival experts. Whatever varieties I can find that already exhibit that characteristic are particularly valuable to me.