True Garlic Seed

[kazedwards]

I decided to try something different this year and cut the scapes and put them in water. It will only be for a few weeks. Most of the flowers have started to swell and several have just withered. I romped the rest of the bulbils today then cut them. We will see if I still get seed or not.

[kazedwards]

Here's a picture of the scapes.

And the swelling flowers.

[kazedwards]

I thought I would post a comparison of the TGS plants and their parent variety Chesnok Red. This year I am looking at color and shape. Next year I will look at bulb size, clove size and taste.
Here are the two TGS plants and a more colorful Chesnok Red. Left is TGS1 the plant that did not produce a scape. It was dug a few weeks ago when it died down completely. Middle is TGS2 the plant that produced a scape. It was dug on Sunday. Right is s Chesnok Red plant also dug on Sunday.


TGS1 the plant that did not produce a scape has a darker purple color that is streaked. The purple coloring is much darker than Chesnok Red but is streaked the same. The cloves also seem to bulge out more making it seem bumpier.


TGS2 the plant that did produce a scape has more of a pink/purple coloring that is lighter than TGS1 but similar to its parent Chesnok Red. It does not have the stripes or streaking though. It's more of a general covering in color. It also has the bulkier bulb shape make the cloves inside more pronounced.


Chesnok Red has a lighter pink/purple color like TGS2 but is streaked like TGS1. It is also smoother making the cloves inside less pronounced.


Even though both parents were Chesnok Red I was hopping to see a wide range of differences. I am happy to see more diversity than I originally thought I did. I wonder if it has something to do with them being F1s and if more diversity will come out in future generations?

[kazedwards]

Jul 29, 2016 10:24:53 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

Update:

My entire experiment was done with scapes remaining on plants outdoors.

Lost almost half of the scapes with bulbils removed due to storms.  That was annoying...

When the remaining plants on which I removed bulbils matured and dried down the flowers dried up, not a single flower opened on any umbel.  So my first attempt with TGS is pretty much a failure, but I still consider it a good practice run.  At least I am familiar with the process now.  I am working on collecting varieties that will be better suited for future experimentation.

One bright spot is that five of the scapes that broke due to bad weather I salvaged and place in a vase of water and put in the house just to see what would happen.  Most of the flowers are at various stages of blooming which I have never seen firsthand so it has been fun to look at them under magnification.  I have been using a paintbrush to try to get some pollination to occur.  Flowers have yellow anthers which I understand is not a good indicator for success, but time will tell. 

For experimentation purposes I placed a scape with complete umbil with bulbils in the water as well.  The bulbils are all fully developed and yet many of the flowers are alive and blooming, did not expect to see that.  Perhaps, if they were to pollinate, they would still get choked out before any seed could mature.

Questions regarding using cut scapes for TGS production:
1.)  What length should the scape/stem be cut at?  I cut mine at around 8 inches, I saw kazedwards left his longer.  Does scape length really matter or have any affect regarding success or failure?
2.)  Cut scape end at an angle?  Smash the end?  I did both.  I was taught to always smash ends of cut flowers to increase water uptake by eliminating possibility of cut end scabbing over.
3.)  I used rainwater in the vase and am replacing it regularly.  At any point should a person put a dilute water soluble fertilizer in the water?   
4.)  Place container with cut scapes in direct or indirect sunlight?  Place container inside or outside?  Is light even needed or necessary for the flower development/fertilization/seed development process?

Questions for kazedwards:
1.)  Were any/many/most of the flowers blooming at the time you removed bulbils?
2.)  Approximately how long was the time period from bulbil removal to when you noticed that pollination had occurred?
3.)  Approximately how long do you expect it to take for the seeds to mature?

Thanks in advance for any responses to any of the questions.

Sorry to hear you didn't have more success this year. You still might with the cut ones in water. I'll try to answer some of your question.

1 about scape height. Here is the link to where I first heard of putting the scapes in water. It a good resource too.
garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html?m=1
I don't think it really matters. I reminder reading somewhere that they cut them tall and trim them as they get mushy. I tried to find the link for that but couldn't find it.

Question 2. I don't think it would matter but I have read that they trim them often.

Question 3. The pink above says that they fertilize them but I didn't.

4 about sunlight. Mine are in the garage with no sun. I wouldn't put them in full afternoon sun but I'm sure it doesn't hurt for them to get light. Mine might fail from the lack of it too.

[meganp]

Zach, most of your flowers look as though they have already been pollinated so the lack of sun may not be so detrimental - they ought to continue to mature in the garage - not that I have had any success whatsoever in obtaining true seed! your efforts have spurred me on to persevere this season as tmi says, last season was a good practice run.

[steev]

Re cutting the scapes long so as to have slack to cut off as they go mushy/clog: a bit of powdered aspirin in the water retards the growth of the organisms that cause that deterioration; that's an old florist's trick (which I learned from my great-grandmother, the first of three generations of florists; I escaped that life, but I could still knock out a funeral spray in my sleep, just from the time I spent watching it done, as a kid).

I would think one wants as much scape as possible, as long as possible; where else will the resources come from to develop seed?

A very small dose of fertilizer might not be amiss, not enough to fry them, just perhaps to replace some of what the plant can no longer provide.

[kazedwards]

Jul 29, 2016 10:24:53 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

Update:

Questions for kazedwards:
1.)  Were any/many/most of the flowers blooming at the time you removed bulbils?
2.)  Approximately how long was the time period from bulbil removal to when you noticed that pollination had occurred?
3.)  Approximately how long do you expect it to take for the seeds to mature?

Thanks in advance for any responses to any of the questions.

About your questions to me. Sorry about the late response for this one.
Question 1. The flowers were at all stages. I started removing them as soon as they started to get some color. I had a lot more plants than I did last year so removing the bulbils took place over ages weeks. There were some flowers open when I started and a lot a week in. The last day I removed bulbils I had the least amount of open flowers. I removed the most bulbils that day too. A most of the flowers had been pollinated by then too. I was surprised the bulbils didn't squeeze them out.

Question 2 about pollination. I would say from the time I started a week and a half give or take a few days.

Question 3 is a hard one. I'm not sure. I will leave the scapes in water until the color fades from the stem and umbel. I think that will be last week of August beginning of September. That's when I will move them to a paper bag to dry. I keep them in the bag into November. That's when they are definitely dry enough to process. So from the time the scapes first split to the time I bag them to dry its 7-10 weeks. Maybe 4-8 weeks from pollination to drying. So around 4 months from the time the scape splits to seeds in a bag dry. I could probably process them sooner but the umbels take a long time to dry. I also like to let them crack and release the seed on its own. My timelines has a lot of room in it too.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

For me, last year, it took about 2 months from the time the garlic was flowering towards the end of July, until I harvested mature/dry seeds at the end of September. I could have harvested earlier, and collected more seed, since some of the pods were opening and dropping seed before I noticed.

Here is what one of my TGS patches looked like this evening. I spend about 10 seconds per umbel to remove bulbils. I'm very much into brusque quick handling. If a variety of garlic holds onto it's bulbils extremely tightly, I cull that variety...

[kazedwards]

Joseph Lofthouse your patch is great. I think I see a few bees maybe on some of the back ones. Looks like you should get some seed this year.

[reed]

Jul 30, 2016 9:13:05 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

 And from what you say, when you are removing bulbils the flowers are already showing color, and some are even blooming.  I personally have seen quite happy flowers blooming on umbels packed tightly with mature bulbils.  So why then do the flowers not fertilize and produce seed on their own without human interference?  

I'v  also see plenty of apparently healthy and anatomically complete flowers on umbels tightly packed with bulbils but no seeds. 

[kazedwards]

Jul 30, 2016 9:13:05 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

I will try your aspirin method, steev.

Thanks for responses to the questions, kazedwards.  Helpful to me and will also give future readers a guideline as well.

Nice photo, nice TGS patch Joseph. 

I am still trying to get the timing thing figured out in my mind, regarding at what stage of plant development a person removes bulbils.  I always thought that by the time the bulbils have matured they will have crippled the flowers, but that just does not seem to be the case with many varieties.  Kazedwards and Joseph, you are removing bulbils when they are loose, so doesn't that mean that they are mature?  Kazedwards even saves what he removes because they are viable and can be used as seed, so they must be mature.  And from what you say, when you are removing bulbils the flowers are already showing color, and some are even blooming.  I personally have seen quite happy flowers blooming on umbels packed tightly with mature bulbils.  So why then do the flowers not fertilize and produce seed on their own without human interference?  

I have been replacing the water in the vase every day, I would think that would help retard/reduce stem rot.  Another question:  How much water in the vase?  An inch or two, or fill the vase?

I think it honestly depends on the variety and area you are in. My method didn't work with the garlic I got from Reed because I waited to long. All of the flowers were crowded out. My Chesnok Red has much smaller bulbils so the flowers don't get choked out very much. I was surprised to see swelling ovaries on a lot of flowers as I was removing the bulbils from the same umbel. Also the bulbils have two layers on Chesnok Red. The first layer mature before the bottom. The bottom push the top out and makes them loose. Chesnok Red is later too.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

There are definitely plenty of pollinators in the garlic patch this year.

I typically remove the splathe about the time that it cracks naturally. Then I wait about a week to remove bulbils. That's typically before the flowers fully open. But what do I know??? I don't have any science to bolster my way of doing things... It just seems to me like it's easier to damage younger flowers...

It seems to me that how firmly the bulbils are held has a lot to do with genetics, and only a little to do with maturity. I have pretty much culled those varieties that have bulbils that are difficult to remove. It just didn't seem productive to me to be fussing with hard-to-remove bulbils.

On the variety in yesterday's photo, I sometimes find seeds in umbels which were left alone, and that are still holding onto their bulbils.

Here's two umbels from a variety. Bulbils were removed from one, but not from the other. The umbel with bulbils removed has something like 8 times more flowers on it.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I counted around 200 flying bugs in the garlic flower patch last evening. Mostly what I'm calling "micro-bees" but also flies, a couple of honey bees, a few hover-flies, a bumblebee, and some wasps. The variety with the most flowers this year has yellow anthers, and was the earliest to flower. But there are some purple anthered flowers in the patch right now as well.


I really should attempt to learn the name and life-history of the most common micro-bee. It seems like one of the principal pollinators in my garden.

[12540dumont]

Joseph, don't forget my garlic this year! PM coming your way. Beautiful little micro bees!

[reed]

We always just called them sweat bees because they like to land on people. I guess they like the salt on your skin. Those cool little flies like in Joseph's picture do that as do one of the smallest of the little bees, the one I always thought of as a sweat bee. They are basically harmless but will sting if you force them too but you probably already knew that. I didn't know until I started paying good attention that they are the most common pollinators along with the little flies.

I also didn't realize there are so many kinds, sizes and colors but all are small. When I googled sweat bee I found pictures of several different kinds most of which looked familiar. An article I found said they nest in the ground and prefer dry bare areas. Don't know if the source was reliable or not cause we have lots of them and there isn't much bare ground around here.

They are definitely the most abundant pollinators and like things that the bumble and honey bees generally ignore, tomatoes for example. Bumble and honey bees are much more interested in flowers but honey bees do like corn tassels and bumble bees like beans.