True Garlic Seed

[steev]

Anecdotal observation in the field is the larval form of "science"; some grad/post-grad student gets wind of it and smells a "study", which generates what most people call "science", the adult form. Note that this has nothing to do with "faith", only with what is manifest in real life, to all faiths: that's science! Some people have a problem with that, but some people don't get enough dietary fiber; may their minds and bowels be opened; Inshallah!

Sweat bees/syrphids are excellent; their larval stages are often ravenous predators of plant-sucking pests, like aphids; these are just the sorts of critters that are often not taken into account in the balance-sheet of mono-culture; these are the critters that pollinated things before honeybees were introduced to the Americas and that will, if honeybees are destroyed; these are the critters that pollinate the things that honeybees ignore. That they aren't amenable to industrial control/exploitation may actually be why they are important to long-term ecological stability/productivity.

[darrenabbey]

Jul 31, 2016 14:05:14 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I really should attempt to learn the name and life-history of the most common micro-bee. It seems like one of the principal pollinators in my garden.

Those are called hoverflies in my experience. That is really a great photo of them. I don't really know much about them, but that they're pollinators and are truly a type of fly instead of a bee.

[khoomeizhi]

yep, pictured are syrphids/hoverflies. many hoverflies are bee-mimics.

sweatbees are a thing too, but different - they're true bees. you can tell when they sting you.

[reed]

The smallest bees I have observed are the little black ones, maybe a 1/4 inch long. They are the ones I always called sweat bees cause they are the only ones I have seen landing on me. We have at least two kinds of the hover flies and they both will land on people. They look the same just different sizes. I have only observed the smaller of these, just like in Josehp's photo working as pollinators.

This year by watching the tomatoes, carrots and things I discovered the other bees that came up in the google search for sweat bees although I would not consider them so. They range up to 1/2 inch or maybe a little more and come in multiple iridescent colors. They pretty much all like the sunflowers and the largest one I'v only seen on sunflowers.

We also have a small fly that I had never noticed before that likes several things. It looks like a miniature house fly. I have little bees, not quite as big as a honey bee that builds long tunnels out of mud in the door frame of my tool shed. They are very docile little things that although they have never offered to sting, I imagine they can. They like fruit; pears, apples, peaches, blackberries but have never seen them vegetables.

[reed]

I don't think it would have occurred to me to cut the umbels and put the in water. I would have thought they need to stay on the plant to properly develop seed. That cold go a long way it getting seed by eliminating everything that can go wrong outside.

[nathanp]

How do you tell if the flower is pollinated vs not pollinated? Assuming it is pollinated, how many of the flowers will produce TGS?

I am trying this with 4 varieties this year.
NOVO TROISK
NAVISTAR
CHIMYAN W-059-A
CHESKNOK RED

[meganp]

Aug 2, 2016 10:18:39 GMT -5 reed said:

I don't think it would have occurred to me to cut the umbels and put the in water. I would have thought they need to stay on the plant to properly develop seed. That cold go a long way it getting seed by eliminating everything that can go wrong outside.

hello Reed, if you go right back to the start of this thread (pg 4) Joseph goes into detail about how he managed to obtain true seed from his garlic and he cut the scapes off his plants (not all) and kept them in a bucket of water. lots of helpful tips for people starting on the tgs journey - I have read and re read Joseph's posts many times

[kazedwards]

Aug 2, 2016 11:27:39 GMT -5 nathanp said:

How do you tell if the flower is pollinated vs not pollinated? Assuming it is pollinated, how many of the flowers will produce TGS?

I am trying this with 4 varieties this year.
NOVO TROISK
NAVISTAR
CHIMYAN W-059-A
CHESKNOK RED

The flowers not pollinated will wither and dry up. If they are pollinated then the ovary will swell. Each flower has six ovules (three chambers of two) making six seeds possible per flower. Each flower has to be pollinated on its own.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Aug 2, 2016 11:27:39 GMT -5 nathanp said:

How do you tell if the flower is pollinated vs not pollinated? Assuming it is pollinated, how many of the flowers will produce TGS?

Each garlic ovary can theoretically have up to 6 seeds in it. If I find seeds in an ovary, it's typically only one or two seeds. In the following photo, the green ovaries may have a growing, pollinated seed in them. The shriveled up white ovaries won't produce seeds.



I collected 15 seed-like things from these 4 garlic umbels.

[nathanp]

Good pictures. Those are very helpful. I believe I have a number that look like that, I just need to harvest the flowerheads and see what is inside the ovaries.

[richardw]

I had ovaries like that last summer but the black seed inside was flat

[bryajw]

This is my 4th year trying to produce TGS. I have two buckets full of flowering Chesnok Red scapes with bulbils removed, and a few more still on the plants. I keep them outside to let the insects pollinate them. I've found that the scapes will mature pretty reliably once they start to straighten up. When I remove bulbils as the umbels crack open I usually end up with bulbils missed. It goes much quicker if I wait for them to mature a bit longer and aggressively remove the lower part of the umbel, then the remaining bulbils are easy to remove. I'm also trying to see if any scapes will produce swollen ovaries without removing the bulbils.

Last year I produced about 200 TGS, but only a few germinated and they died.

[reed]

My single TGS plant is still green and growing. The other two are buried back there in the sweet potatoes somewhere but they  dried up so early on that I doubt they are alive. Don't know what to do with this one. I guess if it starts to dry up I'll dig it and replant later. If not I suppose I'll just leave it where it is. Never having had a TGS plant before I'm just guessing on how best to keep it through winter. Any suggestions?

It is Chesnok Red from kazedwards's seeds. 

[kazedwards]

My plants from last year overwintered just fine in the ground. I would say let it keep growing if it doesn't die down and if it does then replant it like normal in late fall. I'm glad you got a good plant out of it.

[tedmeredith]

Greetings—



My friend and colleague Avram Drucker and I published an article “Growing Garlic from True Seed” in the Seed Savers Exchange Spring 2012 edition of The Heritage Farm Companion. To compliment the article and further help and encourage others in the pursuit of garlic from true seed, I established a forum on the Seed Savers Exchange website. In those four years, we have had nearly 300 posts and over 35,000 views. Unfortunately, Seed Savers Exchange has decided to discontinue hosting forums and none of the existing content or further postings will be available after the first of September. My thanks to “meganzqn” of your group for alerting me to the Seed Savers Exchange forum’s discontinuance and of your active forum on the same topic.


For those who may be interested, our 2012 article describes a baseline methodology for producing and growing out true garlic seed. It is by no means offered as the final word on the topic, but as a proven baseline method that has worked. Our practices are based on the publications and generous help and advice by researchers in the private and public sector, particularly researchers from the United States Department of Agriculture. Without them, we would not have succeeded. From reviewing the postings on this forum, the methods we outline are generally aligned with the practices described in this forum. There is much to learn, and sharing results and experiences helps all.

For those who are interested, our original article, addenda to the article, naming conventions for tracking new seed-grown cultivars and their subsequent generations, and link to the soon-to –be discontinued forum can be found at:

garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html

My congratulations to those in this forum who have succeeded in their efforts and those who are striving to do so. Maintaining, enhancing, and extending garlic’s biodiversity is indeed a worthwhile effort.



Ted

garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html