Potato Onions and True Potato Onion Seed TPOS

[paquebot]

As stated almost 4 years ago, true shallots do not produce seeds. They will bloom but not often. I've grown a half-dozen different varieties over the years and never saw a blossom until this year. I'm not certain of the variety but it was given to me by a Hmong gardener. Last year, only got divisions as usual. This year several have sent up flower stalks. Alas, I won't be able to allow them to complete their cycle since they are only about 25' away from Amish bottle onions which I have to get seed from. A friend planted back some shallots which she purchased from a supermarket. They initially divided like a normal shallot but now are producing flower stalks. We'll let them do their thing and see if seeds are produced.

Martin

[philagardener]

Jul 2, 2016 22:27:07 GMT -5 paquebot said:

This year several have sent up flower stalks. Alas, I won't be able to allow them to complete their cycle since they are only about 25' away from Amish bottle onions which I have to get seed from.

paquebot , you might bag them and see if they are self fertile, while protecting the other variety.

[paquebot]

Too late to do anything with those shallot blossoms as all were removed a few days ago. I can always grow more of those shallots and still have some in the pantry which are hard as rocks. That is one trait or true shallots. Although similar to golden shallots, they are not the same. Not certain what I'll get from those which bolted. Regardless, I'll be planting some back this fall. And that reminds me of something. My Hmong friend has always only planted them in the spring and then used them as green scallions. In the end, the remaining bulbs were always small. Since she had never planted them in the fall, she was surprised when I reported 1½" bulbs from fall planting. It was those large fall-planted bulbs which bolted this year. Just one more example of the craziness of the allium family.

Martin

[reed]

Well not sprouting, sprouted and growing. Now to see how they do through winter and figure out what to do with them later. Those larger leaves to the top and right are garlic. I plant everything crowed due to space limitations. I counted 33 all together which based on how they are spaced is pretty close to every seed planted. I thought I planted them all but forgot I had put a few up just in case, I'll hold on to them til spring I guess. 

[reed]

There appears to be some variation in how my TPOS are responding to cold. It hasn't been real cold yet, only about 26F but some are staying strong and green and some are a little yellowed on the tips. It's just the tips and I don't think is really threatening their health, at least not yet. 

The ones not doing it are maybe 30% of the total. They are taller and darker green with a touch of blue. They are beautiful little things, sorry I couldn't get a good picture.

[reed]

Yes, they are from your seeds.

[reed]

Merlin it is. It has been colder but no snow since I last reported and the ones I mentioned before that were lighter green and yellowed tips are pretty much missing in action. I suspect they are still alive but will have to wait till spring to know for sure. The darker greenish blue ones have not grown much more but look exactly the same, still strong looking little things.

Lots of more learned and experienced people than me talk a lot about how many kinds of crossed up seed  yield mostly poor offspring, I won't dispute that. Still I want to see it for myself.

[reed]

"What is interesting to me is that crossed up seeds and true seeds of plants normally vegetatively reproduced yield mostly poor offspring..."

"I also think acclimation to local growing conditions can be another cause of this decline-increase pattern, however..."


Yes, I guess it does mostly apply to things that have just been cloned for generations, years. In another thread folks were talking about eugenics something I know nothing about. I wonder though, maybe after years of cloning it comes into play and the genes drift a little and they do forget how to grow from seed. If so then the "re-learning" process over a few generations might produce some great locally adapted stuff. 

[add]   I meant epigenetics although the other might not be a bad thing in some cases.

[reed]

Dec 14, 2016 12:48:27 GMT -5 reed said:

Merlin it is. It has been colder but no snow since I last reported and the ones I mentioned before that were lighter green and yellowed tips are pretty much missing in action. I suspect they are still alive but will have to wait till spring to know for sure. The darker greenish blue ones have not grown much more but look exactly the same, still strong looking little things.

Ha, quoted myself to make it easier to remember the topic.

Will still have to wait to see if the ones who's leaves died will come back but I think I can officially proclaim the bluish/green ones hardy. It's been low single digits a couple times without snow or mulch and they still look the same. I'm itching to plant something so I think I might sow some more indoors to see how they compare to the direct planted ones this spring. 

As far as hardy goes I always thought my climate was less severe than say Minnesota or Utah but with long periods without even frost a lot of things actually grow a little. Then comes a night or two of below zero F and really puts a stress on things that were't even completely dormant. A lot don't make  it but what does must be pretty tough. 

[reed]

In my family it was always kinda traditional to plant onion sets, potatoes, carrots and peas in mid April. Old timers were specific to planting on Good Friday. I now go mostly on when the soil becomes workable rather than date or temps. Mid, even early March is ok with me now. Heck, February will do if the ground is dry.

I don't know how far to count back for starting from seed but I'm thinking now would be good, maybe even sooner would have been better. I'm gonna put some onion and leeks on a heat mat as soon as my new one arrives. When they sprout I'll take them outside and only bring them in if I anticipate hard freezing. I think early Feb is when I started TGS last year. 

With onions, garlic and other things that have a hint of hardiness or perennial nature I want to move to direct planting as soon as the seed matures. I'm ok with adapting myself to any changes in traditional form or use that arise from that. I'm glad I went ahead and direct planted some you sent me last fall, now I got a little head start on selection. 

I have no memory of people around here ever planting onion by seed. I have in the past had them self sow but never paid much attention, just ate green onions and tilled the rest out the next year, how dumb was that?  If you mentioned TGS here people would look at you like you have three heads.

[reed]

I'm far from experienced in growing onions from seed but the TPOS you sent me are doing well just having been direct seeded in the ground last fall. They did segregate as I mentioned before and I don't know if the ones that died back are still alive or not. The bluish colored ones haven't grown much lately but are doing fine.

Only thing I have had problem with is heaving out of the ground by freezing. Sticking them back in as it happens and they still look fine. Based on that, three things I'll do different in the future, #1 plant earlier, pretty much at the same time as the seeds ripen and would fall naturally so they have a chance to root down a little better, #2 prepare the soil better so they don't have to contend with the straight clay, #3 better spacing so I can weed a little between them and maybe mulch. Winter mulch can be counter productive here cause of the wetness so have to be careful there. Anyway if this helps any I think they are pretty tough little things and I suspect however you do it will work fine.

I'm getting a cold frame / hot bed ready today to put several kinds of onions in including the ones I saved of yours. The base is compost, dry leaves and chicken poo about 6" deep. I bury 6" deep pots with seed mix down in that and water it all down. Set in a few jugs of water and put the lid on. Once they are up I'll just put them outside and let frost kill off any overly whimpy ones.

[reed]

Yesterday I carefully weeded around my little Merlin TPOS onions and ended up finding 27 plants. I don't remember how many seeds I planted but it wasn't a lot more than that. There are three or four different phenotypes to the leaves including some that are much shorter, only about 1/2 tall but thicker than the ones that are 3 or 4 inches tall. I think they may be the ones that had died back and are now coming back up. Found a couple I had missed that had frost heaved but were still alive, they had little tiny bulbs. Others in similar situation did not have a noticeable bulb.

I worked in a little bit of compost mixed with crumbled dry leaves and mulched a tiny bit. I think they should be in better shape now as far as heaving out from frost but even if they do it does not kill them as long as I catch it in time and replant.

It's been so warm I opted to mostly plant in the cold frame, five kinds of onions and some garlic went in yesterday. The cold frame is my preferred method and expect it to work fine but just in case I am doing a few TPOS and garlic inside as well. Will also be doing a direct seeded patch before too long.

[reed]

Mine are sprouting and growing nicely as I reported over in my thread. I have a problem though with the ones I planted last fall. They have really started to take off now it is obvious they are planted way to close together. I'm thinking digging and transplanting every other one to a new spot.

[reed]

Those do look good. I planted mine similar but a little more sparely. Looking at your picture I'm guessing it is pretty easy to just dump them out and separate when it's time to plant? I don't see any seed coats hanging on the tips. Did they not do that or did you remove them?

[reed]

Wasn't sure where to put this but I was reading Kelly Wetherton's info about potato onions and he says he thinks potato onions and shallots are really the same thing. Also toomanyirons has managed to cross the two so I though I would drop it in here. 

Last fall, I think around October I got some shallots at the grocery and panted some along with some other of my own saved onions and others from the store. They are all growing except the store ones called pearl onions, which rotted, and the shallots. I had examined the shallots in the ground and they still seemed solid but no growth so I got curious and dug a couple up. 

Here they are along with one that was stored in the bin since the same time last fall. I'm not much familiar yet with keeping quality and dormancy but Kelly talked a lot about those things in his writings and I think this is a pretty good example of what he talked about. Two of the ones below spent the last few months outside in cold wet clay. They didn't rot and it looks like they are just getting ready to break dormancy and they appear to be dividing. The dry one spent the same time in the storage bin, no rotting, no sprouting, it looks exactly the same as when I bought it. 




I love this, it is exactly what I would like to have. A crop that you can store or just leave in the ground and harvest as needed through the winter. I wonder if they will bloom? I wonder if the potato onions and potato onion / shallot crosses will have the same qualities. I have about two hundred seedlings growing now including some that were planted last fall.

The fall planted ones are small but I wonder, might they bloom this year? Maybe onions could be annual rather than biannual, just that the annual part refers to an actual year rather than two growing seasons. Plant pretty much immediately when the seeds mature, leave them alone through winter and stat over the next year? I hope to find out in a few months.