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Post by atash on Nov 12, 2012 20:19:43 GMT -5
He didn't hybridize them and I wasn't claiming otherwise; the question is what their upstream origins are. I have no idea and was only speculating on a possibility.
He did mention that the seedlings he got were variable as per size and multiplying habit. He selected them for large size, multiplying habit, and pale color.
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Post by paquebot on Nov 12, 2012 23:13:14 GMT -5
"Seed to Seed" gives a mile as isolation distance to assure purity. Unless one knows what's blooming a mile upwind, there can be a certain amount of uncertainty as to what the results are going to be. The fact that Kelly is getting a wide variety of sizes could be that it wasn't just that one variety which was involved.
Martin
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 13, 2012 6:59:45 GMT -5
One of my issues with Seed to Seed is that she never cites her bibliography for any of her isolation recommendations, among other things.
According to Frankel and Galun, "Pollination Mechanisms, Reproduction, and Plant Breeding", Allium cepa is given a recommended isolation distance of 800 meters.
R. A. T. George , "Vegetable Seed Production" gives an Allium cepa isolation distance recommendation of 1000 meters for producing foundation seed.
So according to those two sources Suzanne Ashworth is overdoing it by almost a half mile.
Kelly says Green Mountain keeps just as well as his original strain of potato onions, but they are three times the size. That to me is reason enough to grow them because I hate peeling small onions. Varietal purity is vastly overemphasized in importance in the seed saving community IMO.
But lets say Kelly is surrounded by other home gardeners who grow onions. Most home gardeners plant onion sets in my experience, and a significant percentage of set-grown plants run to seed. So there would be potential for cross pollination from them with Kelly's potato onions. Then you have to talk about the percentage cross pollination between the two groups of onions that are less than the 800 meter distance from each other.
How attractive are onion flowers to pollinators? Joseph says he keeps cross pollination between separate squash blocks below 3% even with a minimal distance between them. Squash blossoms are highly attractive to pollinators.
I personally feel that Allium blooms are considerably less attractive to pollinators than many other crops, but I have no evidence of that other than almost never seeing a pollinator on them. This would make cross pollination less likely and the percentage of crossing would be lower. A lot of this would also depend on the local ecosystem where Kelly gardens which we know basically nothing about other than it is somewhere in Utah. With such a low percentage of likely cross pollinations, it should be pretty easy to rogue out any undesirable traits that might arise from this kind of crossing should there be any.
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Post by ferdzy on Nov 13, 2012 8:19:17 GMT -5
I'm surprised you didn't see a lot of pollinators on your onion blooms. Mine were absolutely swarmed, mostly with bees. They practically had to stand in line to get on.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 13, 2012 9:54:23 GMT -5
My garden and Kelly's garden are in the same climate, ecosystem, and society. In my garden the Apis genus are not much interested in onion flowers, even though the honeybee population is very high. What honeybee in their right mind would visit an onion flower when alfalfa is the main agricultural crop in the area? However the parasitic wasps and hoverflies and other insects find them extremely attractive. Pollinators are clever: If a flower is male sterile and not producing pollen, then the pollinators boycott it. Due to the quadratic nature of pollination, I find huge isolation distances to be logically inconsistent. Due to the effects of localized pollen swamping, I view recommendations of huge isolation distances with suspicion. [Yes, I have come to believe that the recommendations are a conspiracy to discourage small scale growers from saving seed. And I definitely question the meme of keeping varieties pure.] Here's a graph showing the quadratic nature of pollination. The further away a pollen donor is, the less likely it is to donate pollen. And it's not a slightly lower probability, it is dramatically less. Sorry no pollen swamping graph today. That would be a calculus problem, and that makes me sick to even contemplate.  |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 13, 2012 17:09:51 GMT -5
Ferdzy, I'm ready to admit that I may not have been paying the best attention. It also may be that I've been growing male sterile varieties that aren't attractive to pollinators vs fertile ones.
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Post by ilex on Nov 13, 2012 17:51:47 GMT -5
I'm surprised you didn't see a lot of pollinators on your onion blooms. Mine were absolutely swarmed, mostly with bees. They practically had to stand in line to get on. I also get many insects on my onions, not many bees, but hundreds of little wasps, some not so small (Scolia flavifrons), and flies. Imagine walking between rows of flowering leeks with 3 or 4 fighting Scolia flavifrons in each flower ... amazing and somewhat scary. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 13, 2012 18:15:06 GMT -5
Imagine walking between rows of flowering leeks with 3 or 4 fighting Scolia flavifrons in each flower ... amazing and somewhat scary. I'm pretty much scared of getting near the onion patch when they are blooming. I don't mind the multitude of tiny to very tiny wasps, it's the huge 2"-3" long (mud-dauber family?) wasps that creep me out. And that pumpkin orange color? Oh my heck!!!! |
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Post by paquebot on Nov 13, 2012 22:58:32 GMT -5
I believe that I mentioned growing my Amish bottle onions in two locations. Those at home were pollinated by various small bees, flies, and wasps. At times I have counted up to 8 different species working the globe. Those on the farn were pollinated primarily by honeybees. For purity, I can only guarantee those on the farm since there was not even another garden within several miles.
Martin
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Post by ferdzy on Nov 14, 2012 13:52:47 GMT -5
Martin, can you tell me more about growingAmish bottle onions? We grew some last year that we got seeds for from Heritage harvest. They were absolutely delicious, but she didn't have seed for them this year. Hopefully we can get some next year. But when I do get it again, I'd like to try growing them out for seed myself. For some reason people make that sound really complex. Is it really any more difficult than any other onion?
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Post by paquebot on Nov 14, 2012 15:23:39 GMT -5
Bottle onions are no different than any other set onion. That is, one must first start out with a mature onion to obtain seeds. That's first year. Seeds are planted to obtain sets. That's second year. Sets are planted to produce mature bulbs. That's third year. Thus one would say that that is a bit complex. Even more complex is that the seed should not be planted before the longest day of the year, 21 June, as they are very particular about length of daylight. If planted in early spring, they are apt to go to seed before the summer is over. If planted in mid-spring, the sets may be too large and will bolt when planted back. Presently I've got about 25 bulbs planted back to winter over and produce seeds, 4 or 5 pounds of sets, plus about a half pint of seeds. I can send seeds to Canada but not sets.
They really are a delicious onion and almost strictly for cooking. Had a cheese, mayo, and onion sandwich for snack last night and took about a dozen "coins" to cover the slice of bread but definitely worth the extra bother.
Martin
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Post by ferdzy on Nov 14, 2012 16:23:31 GMT -5
Martin, it absolutely necessary to dig them up and store them? My other onions I just leave in the ground over the winter if I want seeds next year.
Also, I'm still a bit confused. With other onions, it's seed to onion in one year, onion to seed next year. Is there an extra year in there with the Amish bottle onions?
And lastly... do you have any seed to spare? (My trade list is up in the seed exchange section, not that I have much that's too unusual.)
Okay, that was almost last. One final question: did you cook those onion coins, or were they raw?!
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Post by paquebot on Nov 14, 2012 22:01:12 GMT -5
I could leave onions in the ground to produce seed but that would defeat the purpose of growing them for eating as well as being able to rogue out something that isn't right. Besides, the field garden is now plowed and planted to garlic and the same with where seeds were produced this year at home.
Seed to onion and onion to seed only applies to varieties which will do that. Were that the only way for common onions, you wouldn't be able to buy red, white, and yellow sets. The sets which you buy in bulk one year were planted as seed the year before. If small or normal size, those sets only grow to mature bulbs without going to seed. If the sets are too large, they will bolt instead of producing a good bulb. Amish bottle onions are the same way in every aspect.
A gardener in Northern California figured that he would have a long enough season to get bulbs in one year. Instead, they divided and went to seed. To test germination one year, I started some seeds in a 72-cell flat in March and transplanted them out in May. Most of those bolted and no bulbs got very big.
You will never ever see bottle onion sets in bulk. Prime reason is that they can not be harvested or packed mechanically like round ones. The best sets are just under 2" long but only ¼" thick. Due to drought and heat, I have many which are 4" dormant plants with the bulb portion only about ¼" thick but 3" long. It remains to be seen what they will do. I have some of those plus sets in the ground right now to see what they will become.
I've been eating raw onions for as long as I can remember. My sister begged for onion sandwich before she could even say onion! When I have onions in a sandwich, they are always raw and sliced just under ¼" thick. They are my cold and sinus medicine no matter if I have a cold or not!
Probably the last thing I need is something else to plant but will gladly send seeds to anyone. Wouldn't break me if I didn't get anything back in return as long as the person receiving them is willing to commit to growing them full cycle.
Martin
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Post by ferdzy on Nov 15, 2012 12:07:09 GMT -5
Okay, I have never grown onions from sets. I always buy seeds, plant them early (mid-Feb) inside and plant them outside in early to mid May. I've never had any bolt. They have always formed regular size (if variable) onions by the end of August. I've never had any bolt.
Now, I've only been doing this for a few years so I have only grown maybe a dozen different varieties. I am on about the same latitude as you are.
What I intend to do next time I want to grow onions for seeds is to dig them up in the fall, inspect them and replant them right away. Otherwise they are too likely to get eaten with the rest of the onion, or otherwise not make it through the winter.
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Post by paquebot on Nov 15, 2012 13:25:49 GMT -5
It's often amusing what some people don't understand about set onions. The main one is why all of those available only as plants can not be grown as sets. It's because they can't! They aren't genetically programmed to be able to have their growth interrupted and then resumed as if nothing happened. Another is how sets are produced. Some think that it's just sowing as normal but real thick. All that would produce would be a lot of scallions. When planted on the longest day of the year, it doesn't matter if a thousand seeds or a single seed is planted as the results are the same. There will be a rush to produce a bulb but the day length will tell the plant to stop growth production. One has to go back a long time to find when gardeners did their own set production and it's hard to find such information on the Internet. Amish have kept it alive and they are the only reason why the bottle types have been saved. I do recall a seed packet received from Germany 30 years ago and there were instructions for growing sets. And once saw a sort of a blog about annually planting onion seeds on 4th of July in Illinois. Other than that, very little information available.
Martin
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