|
|
Post by Darth Slater on Nov 28, 2012 20:10:39 GMT -5
I think we need a complete book, I will buy it and also anything Dar Jones would write.
|
|
|
|
Post by circumspice on Nov 28, 2012 20:12:05 GMT -5
I grew out 8 plants of J's mainseason tomatoe"landrace". Two were of determinate type,one cherry size and one quite big sized fruit Two yellow ones,and four plants,with varying vigor, with red or pink tomatoes off different size and taste per plant,one of them potatoe leafed. So this is what J call a "landrace"? Just nonsense. All you would have to do is mixing many packets of seed to create a "landrace" I defenitly vote "no",better spend some time on reflection on the definition of landrace instead of emptying the term of all meaning by calling about anything "landrace". There exist the words genepool,grex,multiline and so,that apply better to different cases What the...?! This is nothing but a petty, mean spirited snipe at someone who has worked tirelessly at developing better varieties for his particular climate & is currently working to develop seed bearing varieties of plants that propagate vegetatively & therefore carry viral loads that threaten their continued existance. Why would you feel the need to slam Joseph's lifework? I see no constructive criticism in your remarks. *get a rope*  |
|
|
|
Post by steev on Nov 28, 2012 20:49:51 GMT -5
Joseph, your last post was so familiar, given my own experience; there are ways of making a living that are absolutely corrosive to the soul. Often they're very "profitable", which kept me at it long past when I knew it was hollowing me out. I don't make nearly as much money/perks as a landscaper/gardener as when I was a chemist for Bayer A G, but I don't hate my work or myself. As for the unpaid work I do on the "farm", I find it regenerative; I look forward to doing it full-time, because it makes sense to me.
Regarding your response to "pettyvillainquack", the patience and equanimity you showed is exemplary.
|
|
|
|
Post by circumspice on Nov 28, 2012 21:07:14 GMT -5
"pettyvillainquack"... ;D  I'd say the ”gentleman” shall hoist himself by his own petard.  |
|
|
|
Post by steev on Nov 28, 2012 23:12:27 GMT -5
Prolly too short to get enough of a grip to hoist anything.
|
|
|
|
Post by petitvilaincanard on Nov 29, 2012 14:05:25 GMT -5
I grew out 8 plants of J's mainseason tomatoe"landrace". Two were of determinate type,one cherry size and one quite big sized fruit Two yellow ones,and four plants,with varying vigor, with red or pink tomatoes off different size and taste per plant,one of them potatoe leafed. So this is what J call a "landrace"? Just nonsense. All you would have to do is mixing many packets of seed to create a "landrace" I defenitly vote "no",better spend some time on reflection on the definition of landrace instead of emptying the term of all meaning by calling about anything "landrace". There exist the words genepool,grex,multiline and so,that apply better to different cases What the...?! This is nothing but a petty, mean spirited snipe at someone who has worked tirelessly at developing better varieties for his particular climate & is currently working to develop seed bearing varieties of plants that propagate vegetatively & therefore carry viral loads that threaten their continued existance. Why would you feel the need to slam Joseph's lifework? I see no constructive criticism in your remarks. *get a rope* I have my reasons and that's a blessing because that makes me about the only person on this board saying things straight as they are. If I would have praised the future author for his fantastic "landrace" I would have been a lyer. Of course if he want to write a book with nonsense,that's his problem. I just wanted to say he shouldn't. I think that's rather kind of me. Better judge your own. |
|
|
|
Post by cortona on Nov 29, 2012 17:41:53 GMT -5
i've voted yes and i'm on the list for a n autographated copy of the first edition, i've learned so much from the Joseph post that simply changed my way of gardening and in some way changed my way of life!
aniway the raimbow chard from Joseph are so well adapted to my harsh dry climate that simply i have not to select nothingh, it are perfect!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 29, 2012 17:45:56 GMT -5
everyone is entitled to their opinion. no need to jump on them for that. I think it's in poor spirit that some of you have done so.
Josephs landraces are adapted to his garden not to anyone else in a different climate. It's not surprising to me that they would do horrible in some places. Having said that i think that tomatoes are probably the least deserving of the landrace title since they are not great outbreeders. In that case it would take a tomato population much longer to adapt to someones climate from mainly pure selection over time. But i can barley grow tomatoes myself, so maybe i dont know what i'm talking about.
I'm probably the best one here able to take advantage of Josephs landrace work since our climates are very close and have much in common. Someone half way around the world might not have the same benefit though, and i wouldn't guarantee that they would. It seems strange that someone would criticise his methods without spending the work developing their own landraces to do the proper research.
|
|
|
|
Post by Drahkk on Nov 29, 2012 20:20:16 GMT -5
Can't see polls from the ProBoards app; had to wait until I got home to vote YES! I'd love a signed copy, but if it's published I'll get one however I must.
Joseph has always said his seed is specifically adapted to his garden at 4900 ft elevation in Utah. To think that the same seed would perform miraculously the first season at 95 ft in mid Mississippi would be madness. The trick is that due to it's genetic diversity it is more adaptable than standard variety Oregon grown seed, and is likely to acclimate to my climate with fewer years of selection than randomly chosen varieties.
Even more than his seed, it is the knowledge and experience Joseph shares that is invaluable. And if/when TSHTF and we lose the internet (among other things) I'd like to have that resource still at hand. I've said for years that while each garden's growth is linear, my knowledge grows exponentially between one year and the next. Thanks to Joseph and others here at HG, I believe the curve went logarithmic this year. And I still have a long way to go. You're either green and growing or ripe and starting to rot, right?
MB
|
|
|
|
Post by steev on Nov 29, 2012 20:37:58 GMT -5
Indeed so; after maturity comes senescence.
|
|
|
|
Post by terracotta on Nov 30, 2012 12:06:57 GMT -5
everyone is entitled to their opinion. no need to jump on them for that. I think it's in poor spirit that some of you have done so. Josephs landraces are adapted to his garden not to anyone else in a different climate. It's not surprising to me that they would do horrible in some places. Having said that i think that tomatoes are probably the least deserving of the landrace title since they are not great outbreeders. In that case it would take a tomato population much longer to adapt to someones climate from mainly pure selection over time. But i can barley grow tomatoes myself, so maybe i dont know what i'm talking about. I'm probably the best one here able to take advantage of Josephs landrace work since our climates are very close and have much in common. Someone half way around the world might not have the same benefit though, and i wouldn't guarantee that they would. It seems strange that someone would criticise his methods without spending the work developing their own landraces to do the proper research. I agree. I have been on other forums where the main following of one selected person could not accept anything except the word of the chosen few. I spent a month trying to reason with these people and even though my ideas were possible and feasible as anyone's the only thing other members did was try to tear it down. I left eventually but if you wanted to see someone bitter and angry it would have been me. if I got Joseph's anything in my humid high rain enviroment it would be just like any "off the shelf" variety and die within a month from fungus. Tomatoes being selfers are like trying to get a landrace of onions. No matter what 3 years is not enough time, I looked up the how to do land races elsewhere and they said for the appropriate genetic drift, mutation, and adaption to occur it takes a minimum of 6 years. To become a native variety it can take anywhere from 10 to 50 years. A large number of people on this site are coming up with landraces and it was good of petitvilaincanard to point out when is a landrace not a landrace. When I brought the landrace idea to the manger of a local organization he laughed at me and said landraces are local to a enviroment you can't create one. I discussed the manner with her for long time and even pointed out and sent a link to Joseph's website as an example. She told me that whatever Joseph is growing it certainly was not a landrace. For seed saving she said you have to at least take some kind of notes and to maintain a variety you need isolation practices. By the same token I am glad Joseph responded in a civilized manner. petitvilaincanard go out and grow whatever plants you think will grow in your climate, set the phenotype you want, look into growing trials and research on the net and make your own variety. By the way a petard is explosive charge for breaching fortification: a small explosive charge or grenade used to blow a hole in a door, wall, or fortification be hoist with your own petard to be the victim of your own attempt to harm somebody else www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+petard&qpvt=petard+definition&FORM=DTPDIAcircumspice your comment "develop seed bearing varieties of plants that propagate vegetatively & therefore carry viral loads that threaten their continued existance" So Joseph is trying to come up with new plant viruses that will kill off plants? Or does it mean he is trying to come up with horizontal resistance to viruses? |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 30, 2012 12:22:42 GMT -5
I cannot directly measure viral load in my garden... So there is not much point for me to be thinking about viruses. However, a credible claim can be made that plants such as garlic are harmed by viruses that get carried through the cloned propagules, and that growing from seeds greatly minimizes the amount of viruses carried from generation to generation.
My experience in my own garden, is that after 3 years growing in my garden: any cross-pollinating genetically-diverse population has become a landrace... The biennials and the selfers are a different matter altogether. I figure that it would take around 7 years for out-crossing biennials, and that the selfers would be somewhere between 3 years and never depending on the rate of natural and man-made crossing, and the rate of trialing foreign varieties. [To me, crossing is crossing, whether it occurred in my garden or in someone else's, and whether it occurred last summer or 100 years ago.]
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 30, 2012 12:32:53 GMT -5
For seed saving she said you have to at least take some kind of notes and to maintain a variety you need isolation practices. That strikes me as an odd thing to say... Would she require every illiterate person to buy seeds from The Company? Because seed saving can only be done by literate note-takers? I wonder how the native Americans ever transformed the corn, squash, and bean genomes into something useful since they didn't read and didn't practice isolation? |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 30, 2012 12:49:17 GMT -5
if I got Joseph's anything in my humid high rain enviroment it would be just like any "off the shelf" variety and die within a month from fungus. I used to worry about fungus when sending my landraces to far away places, but what I have learned is that I can't predict that ahead of time... I am not actively selecting for susceptibility to fungus. So chances are excellent that among the thousands of cultivars that get incorporated into my landraces, that at least some of them will have contributed genes for fungus resistance, and with no process in place to eliminate those genes, they are likely laying dormant waiting to be expressed when planted in a damp garden. And genomes are complex things... What expresses as frost tolerance in my garden might express as flooding tolerance in another... And if my squash is susceptible to powdery mildew in a foreign garden, that might not matter if it matures fruit quick before the mildew kills the plant. |
|
|
|
Post by terracotta on Nov 30, 2012 14:12:45 GMT -5
if I got Joseph's anything in my humid high rain enviroment it would be just like any "off the shelf" variety and die within a month from fungus. I used to worry about fungus when sending my landraces to far away places, but what I have learned is that I can't predict that ahead of time... I am not actively selecting for susceptibility to fungus. So chances are excellent that among the thousands of cultivars that get incorporated into my landraces, that at least some of them will have contributed genes for fungus resistance, and with no process in place to eliminate those genes, they are likely laying dormant waiting to be expressed when planted in a damp garden. And genomes are complex things... What expresses as frost tolerance in my garden might express as flooding tolerance in another... And if my squash is susceptible to powdery mildew in a foreign garden, that might not matter if it matures fruit quick before the mildew kills the plant. good point. That is what horizontal resistance is all about. As long as it produces mature seed even if the fruit is rotten or immature there is hope for continued adaptation. |
|
