Joseph's book

[ferdzy]

Only if he wants to! It's awfully easy to say other people "should" do something... But if he's inclined, I can say I'd be interested in it.

[terracotta]

alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=5947&page=3

[wolfcub]

Only if he wants to. I for one find most of Joseph's posts a learning experience. If he should write a book, I would be interested in it.

[mountaindweller]

Sure, that only if he wants to. I know that one can't earn big money writing books, but it is always good having a second income even if it is small. And I would find it very interesting selling vegetables along with a book written by the grower. In a smaller community you will be known by everyone, having to give talks and so on (I would find this part quite scary though). To sell seeds it would definitively help.

[kwilds]

If it is something he wants to do then I say go for it! I would be among the first in line to buy a copy.

[12540dumont]

Put me on the list, but only if you sign it.

[bonsaioutlaw]

Joseph's message on landrace genetics would be a good read, but if it also included more about Joseph's views and opinions on a small variety of other topics it could be a very interesting work. This is a complex man and worthy of more investigation in my opinion, I vote yes. We need a book. An evolving online booklet at the very least Sir.

[steev]

I agree with Holly, and regret not saying so when I thought it, before she posted; signed first edition, I'm there. Joseph, your scholarship is most impressive. As much as I value your ongoing posts, I suspect I would find many night's grist for contemplation in a work you would produce. No rush; I'll wait however long you take; I don't suppose I'll out-learn what you have to offer. Really, though, gotta be signed; I ain't gonna buy it from Amazon!

[petitvilaincanard]

I grew out 8 plants of J's mainseason tomatoe"landrace".
Two were of determinate type,one cherry size and one quite big sized fruit
Two yellow ones,and four plants,with varying vigor, with red or pink tomatoes off different size and taste per plant,one of them potatoe leafed.

So this is what J call a "landrace"? Just nonsense.
All you would have to do is mixing many packets of seed to create a "landrace"

I defenitly vote "no",better spend some time on reflection on the definition of landrace instead of emptying the term of all meaning by calling about anything "landrace".
There exist the words genepool,grex,multiline and so,that apply better to different cases

[davida]

I have learned many things from Joseph but one of the most interesting was GDD, growing degree days. This topic deserves a very long chapter. And sign me up for an autographed copy.

[terracotta]

Nov 27, 2012 19:53:24 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

petitvilaincanard: Thanks for the grow report. Do you have any photos to share?

My definition of landrace includes a two part test:

• The population must be genetically diverse.
• The plants must be locally adapted and reliably productive in my garden.

A bunch of seeds mixed together, is just a bunch of seeds mixed together. We see plenty of those for sale by commercial seed companies: both intentional and inadvertent. It is only after years of adaptation to my specific local growing conditions that I consider a population to be a landrace. (Usually a minimum of 3 years.)

Which raises an interesting philosophical question... When I send my landrace seeds to a very far away garden do they cease being a landrace?

I would say no you don't.

What you have there is a grex defined as
grex: A group name for all plants derived from crossing the same two or more parent species; the herd or hybrid swarm.

found at glossary.gardenweb.com/glossary/grex.html

A landrace has to have roughly the same phenotype or have the same morphology from one plant to the next. Having all the colors of the rainbow with all possible sizes is not a landrace but can be considered the raw material for a landrace that would allow for the selection for each climate and soil conditions it is sent to as stated by long island seed.

The main feature for a land race is it has to be distinct from other such cultivars it came from to allow for identification.

all photos and quotes come from Joseph's website or posts

A good example of a landrace is his Joseph's best cantaloupe

"the photos below were taken on the same day. The seeds were also planted on the same day a few feet from each other. Each photo shows one plant. The plant with prolific growth is from my breeding program. The other small plant is typical of how off-the-shelf cantaloupe seeds grow in my garden. This one well adapted plant produced more fruit than a 50 foot row of off-the-shelf cantaloupe."



The so called off the shelf variety, although due to the planting method of
". I planted the first packet of seed, and then the next packet, etc without keeping track of which varieties went where until the whole field was planted" no one know what variety it would be. possibly be a midget or bush type.



here's watermelon
off the shelf


landrace

[terracotta]

your statement

"I would be able to tell. My plants grow more delicately, early in the season, putting more effort into producing fruit than to growing tremendous vines."

Would answer your question

"If phenotype should be included in the definition of landrace, then how does one go about determining which phenotype characteristics are required to be part of a landrace and which are not important?"

you have also stated here:

alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stuff&action=display&thread=6136&page=2]

"Closer observation in sunlight, showed that the trait is consistent in both daylight and moonlight... Among the 4 proto-landraces that I am growing, the only plants that have set fruits so far are the green leaved plants from my proto-landrace, which have set many fruits about 3 to 5 pounds. The silver leaved plants haven't set any fruits larger than a ping-pong ball. Not all of the green leaved plants have set fruit, but many of them have. I am calling them green leaved and silver leaved, even though the green leaved plants from the proto-landrace still have some silver in the leaves.

So I'm wondering if "Green leaved" would be an easy early screening technique for plants that grow better in my garden?"

The most common phenotype characteristic I come across is high brix in the fruit or seed.

the following quotes come from

alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=5947&page=1

bitterness is selected against like in your post

"Taste is one of the criteria for my cucumber landrace. I wouldn't intentionally save seeds from a bitter cucumber whether it is a pickler (or as I call them a salad cuke) or a slicing cuke. That depends a lot on the weather, but I do what I can. If I got really clever about it, I'd taste fruits from each plant during the growing season and weed out any that even had a hint of bitter."


The widely used plant breeding for hybrid swarm is to not select anything for the first year because all of the characteristics (except seed in corn) will be of the material type. The number of seed produced is the most common characteristic that the plant itself selects for.

you have stated this here

"I am not doing any selecting for suitability... I figure that plants that grow better in my garden will produce more seeds, and will be better represented in the landrace."

the following quotes are from

alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=5947&page=2

you have also stated

"
If I am growing something primarily for production in a crop that already does very well for me: such as my turnips, I just plant them and save seeds from the most productive 20% of the plants in the patch: however I am defining productivity today. I might add foreign seeds or roots to the crop from time to time, but always in small percentages. And I might save something only for it's diversity, but again in small quantities. I have phenotypic and agronomic and culinary goals in mind for each crop, and as long as 95% of the crop meets those criteria I am happy as a sandy beach on a sunny day."

For cantaloupe and watermelon the phenotype selected is more leaves and more prolific growth.

for squash your statement
garden.lofthouse.com/open-pollinated-butternut-moschata.phtml

"In the 2011 growing season the seed was planted in patches based on the size of the mother fruit: Small, medium, or extra large. Selection criteria included oranger flesh, quicker maturity, and drier flesh. In addition particular attention was paid to saving seeds from plants that appear to be hybrids with other types, especially with the goal of transferring the deep orange color of the Dickinson pumpkin into butternut shaped squash. Several truckloads of butternut squash were harvested. I think of the 3rd year of a selection/breeding program as being magical. It's such a joy to see the desired phenotype manifest itself in such abundance. "

I think you have a good start to your book online already. You have an introduction and several pages of examples ( although I would write more for short season cold tolerant watermelon), Pictures of your plants/produce on the forum here and on website that could go into the book. Then you have several pages on issues you would like addressed.

[gray]

Joesph sign me up for a first edition autographed copy. Anyone as positive and encouraging as you gets my support. Thanks Gray

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Nov 28, 2012 17:58:48 GMT -5 gray said:

Joesph sign me up for a first edition autographed copy. Anyone as positive and encouraging as you gets my support. Thanks Gray

You wouldn't have liked me two decades ago. I was bitter and angry: working for one of those black-ops non-existant off-budget agencies that was paid for by drug smuggling money. My work was nasty. It poisoned the ecosystem, it poisoned my soul, and it poisoned every aspect of my life and attitude. So I quit and returned to my village and to the farm. My three garlic seeds mean more to me than everything that was accomplished in two decades working as a research chemist. I am happy these days.

[James]

;D

I believe he has written a book already. Research his posts on the forum.