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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 3, 2012 14:18:31 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I reckon a inbreeder landrace like tomatoes might be really hard to develop, without intentional crossing and lots of growouts. But in an extreme environment, with quite harsh environmental filters, a landrace might be quick to develop. Surely the plasticity of the taxon is also important? I think it might be really tough to set specific periods for when a landrace actually is a landrace and no longer ' proto'. But, hey everyone else is being definitive, so I'm voting for exactly 7 years 3 months and 15.3 days til it's a landrace. ... it's the English language after all, meanings flex and change, we misunderstand each other, and grex, landrace, multiline, hybrid swarm, who really cares? the genes are just out there, interacting with each other and the environment, has anyone asked them? And this is all too much fun to start bitching about! T While i think developing landrace tomatoes might be harder than some other crops (by way of hybrids), one should take into account that when plants and animals are exposed to new (often extreme) environments outside of their originating environment that they often show increased amounts of epigentic changes (which eventually lead to real genetic changes). In a climate like josephs i doubt many insects pollinate tomatoes, but that does not mean that it doesn’t happen at all. I found two posts which i find very interesting: the first by Joseph: alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=articles&thread=5947&post=65307Joseph states that for him adaption is usually very fast for him because of his extreme climate. This certainly makes sense to me, but it also highlights the fact that the same amount of time might not do much for someone else in a different environment. the second by petitvilaincanard (aka. "nuts"): alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=articles&thread=5947&post=65297I'm sorry to say petitvilaincanard, while i can understand your reasoning your logic is not quite correct. As i have stated above epigentic changes often occur quite rapidly in extreme environments, where plants (and animals) must either adapt or die. They don't need cross pollination for this to happen, though cross pollination would certainly be desired as to speed things along. Exactly, the English language is a horrible mis-mosh of several different languages, and seems to be a grex of segregating populations of several unique landraces in it's own right. lol. Not that it matters much, but i hate the term "grex", not sure who invented that, but "mix", "population", and "landrace" are all words that i will continue to use. I also find "adaptivar" a neat word too. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 3, 2012 14:56:45 GMT -5
Swiss chard is a species for which I see little local adaptation. The foreign imports grow as well for me as my local seed. There's little to select for, since everything grows great. I could push the color of the stalks one way or the other, but yawn, who cares? And some plants are slightly less eaten by grasshoppers in September, but again, what's it matter: by then the family is too overwhelmed by winter squash to be eating much chard.
Not much to select for in beets or turnips either.
Onions grow great for me, but also have a lot of potential to be developed for my garden, (or more specifically for my planting habits).
I dislike eating and growing most brassicas, and they make my family sick (Hoshimotos), so I'm unlikely to work on local adaptation for them. I'll just grow whatever The Company or my swap-network has to offer.
Bumblebees visit my tomato blossoms regularly, and a teeny-tiny little black flying thing, perhaps a parasitic wasp, and some type of hoverfly. It would be interesting to plant tomatoes fruit-to-row, to evaluate how much crossing is going on. My shelling pea landrace started out with only white flowers. It will be interesting to see if any pollen from the snow/snap peas moves into the shelling peas since they were grown side-by-side this year, and the pea weevils surely travel from flower to flower. Should be easy to see since the snow/snap peas have colored flowers. Don't expect color until the F2 though.
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Post by petitvilaincanard on Dec 3, 2012 16:04:20 GMT -5
Hi Keen,thanks for digging up those old posts Epigenetics is a new field of biological fenomenes but little is known about it yet. I observed similar fenomenes indeed.Varieties doing much better the second and thirt generation,so spectacular that I don't think that it has something to do with genetic recombination and selection. But I read somewhere that epigenetic things are due rather to the way genes expresses rather than changes in the genes themselves.I think you are quite optimistic to think that genes can signicantly change by epigenetis mechanisms.Anyway this be completely in contradiction with genetic science in the actual state. But,epigenetics or not , ALL higher organisms has specialised mechanisms for genetic recombination(called sexual reproduction). From this you could conclude that organisms that didn't have these things have disapeared because they were not able to adapt to the ever changing world. Would plants develop such sophisticated organes as flowers if epigenetics could do the job.(no,of course  Now why have tomatoes colored and open flowers if a closed hidden organ could do the job of self pollination.Well,I think that's because the wild ancestors were cross insect- pollinating plants. Many cultivated plants became self pollinisators.I don't know the mecanism that led to this situation,but man was not unhappy with this,because this made it easy to breed true breeding varieties. In many cases (tomatoes as exemple),the rate of cross pollination is extremely low,sometimes ,with breeders that want to keep their heirloom tomatoes "pure"until eternity It's not strange that so many heirloom do bad because they are degenerating because of too many generations of selfing.Tomatoes need humans help to create new recombinations by hand pollination.So it's guys like Tom Wagner that saves the tomatoegenetics not the heirloom purists. I've been thinking about methods to make tomatoe an insect cross pollinator again and thus more suited for "landrace" breeding. I think you would have to plant a great number of well distinct varieties,so that eventual crosses are easy to identify and keep each line you reproduce separate So you keep the if1seed from every plant that is a natural cross(different from the parent) for the improved population.But I'm afraid this is a work of titansnand I don't have courage to start.Maybe there are some wilder varieties that do better cross pollination? |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 3, 2012 16:39:40 GMT -5
Phenotype variability due to epigenetics is a well known phenomena in garlic. Because garlic is traditionally grown only as clones, it is easier to notice the epigenetic effects. I think that similar effects would be noticed in potatoes if anyone was paying attention. I'd call the epigenetic effect a small effect, and the exchange of DNA a large effect. It is likely that insect pollinators for tomatoes are still present in the center of origin for tomatoes. And in other areas various species pollinate tomato blossoms. To obtain a population of tomatoes that is more cross-pollinating, tomato blossoms can be examined with a magnifying glass and selection made for plants that have a more extended stigma. Those plants are more likely to be cross-pollinated than plants that have a hidden stigma. Eventually, if I get more serious about making quicker progress on my tomato landrace, I may examine the flowers closely and select for better flower structure, and watch the blossoms closely and cultivate species of pollinators that visit the blossoms... That's a project all in itself. I ain't very good at identifying insect species or discerning their natural history and reproductive needs. Perhaps a general purpose insectary, next to the tomato patch, would be sufficient. A third option would be to self tomato plants, and select for cultivars that have a self-incompatible mechanism. Later edit: There may be some genomes in which the anther cup splits open to allow foreign pollen onto the stigma. Other genomes may have anther cups with larger openings. Some genomes may be attractive to species of pollinators that will tear the anther cone in search of goodies. |
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Post by Drahkk on Dec 3, 2012 21:16:04 GMT -5
Just a tidbit from the peanut gallery, but wild currant tomatoes and pretty much all potato leaved varieties exhibit extended styles and are therefore easier to cross. Traits possibly linked on the same chromosome? Might be a place to start.
MB
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Post by ilex on Dec 5, 2012 2:24:53 GMT -5
Now why have tomatoes colored and open flowers if a closed hidden organ could do the job of self pollination.Well,I think that's because the wild ancestors were cross insect- pollinating plants. There are reports of 50-70% crossing under some conditions. |
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Post by Walk on Dec 5, 2012 15:41:17 GMT -5
Back to the original question - should Joseph write a book or not? Having writen a couple of small books myself I would have to say that there is a definate downside to the process. It's very consuming - of time, energy, and all thoughts. Even if you try to work on it in the "off season", it still interferes with life. It's more a matter of if you have the wherewithal to pull it off. If you decide to go for it, great. I really appreciate reading about other farmers/gardeners approaches even if their climate or situation is quite different from mine. Case in point, Carol Deppe's the Resilient Gardener - I learned a lot even though her Pacific northwest climate is extremely different from Minnesota.
Since you've already posted so much, one piece of advice is to go back and "mine" your postings for relevant material. Sometimes a posting explains something in a way that can't be improved upon, or at least gives you a starting point to edit.
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Post by terracotta on Dec 7, 2012 11:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by terracotta on Dec 7, 2012 11:55:12 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I reckon a inbreeder landrace like tomatoes might be really hard to develop, without intentional crossing and lots of growouts. But in an extreme environment, with quite harsh environmental filters, a landrace might be quick to develop. Surely the plasticity of the taxon is also important? I think it might be really tough to set specific periods for when a landrace actually is a landrace and no longer ' proto'. But, hey everyone else is being definitive, so I'm voting for exactly 7 years 3 months and 15.3 days til it's a landrace. T If I were to set a definition it would be " A significant deviation from the average values of the parent population in terms of brix rating or dry matter of edible biomass" |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 7, 2012 12:17:15 GMT -5
Terracotta: Nice research. I particularly liked the graphs of pollen dispersal. I think I'd attribute the poor quality of this fruit to mechanical damage when the fruit was very small. Seeing those pages reminded me how my thinking has evolved over the years. Today I updated my comments about open pollinated seeds.
Open Pollinated Seeds In the seed industry, the term "open pollinated" has come to mean the exact opposite of its plain and common sense meaning. As used by industry, the term "open pollinated" means that any offspring will look and grow exaclty like their parents, in otherwords, they are highly inbred and might as well be clones of their parents. This inbreeding is often reinforced by selfing, growing in cages, etc: Contrary to the plain meaning of the term. Before I understood this disconnect, it seemed like a contradiction to speak of a "pure" strain of an open pollinated crop. Shouldn't the term open pollinated imply that we don't really know who the father is? In my garden I am now using the term "Promiscuously Pollinated" to call attention to the fact that I may not know much about the pollen donor, and that there is every possibility that the father might not be a functional clone of the mother. I am only growing genetically diverse crops, mostly landraces, so I don't care if I receive pollen from other sources. I propagate the best-growing most-suitable plants each year, so if stray pollen helps my crop grow better then I welcome it into my garden. If it causes something to grow worse then I don't select that plant for making seeds. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 7, 2012 13:09:27 GMT -5
Thanks you for talking about this Joseph, this one is something that really bugs me that the gardening and breeding community has adopted. Logically it should mean exactly as it sounds. How the phrase came to mean the exact opposite meaning confounds me beyond belief. This is a topic that needs to be put into some sort of book. Whether it is written by you or someone else. I like your alternative phrase "Promiscuously Pollinated", that one is very good. "Bee pollinated" might also work, but it's not as descriptive. p.s. There is a new plant breeding book coming out next year. Not sure if it will have anything interesting or useful, but i thought I’d provide a link below for those interested. www.amazon.com/Plant-Breeding-Home-Gardener-Vegetables/dp/1604693649 |
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Post by adamus on Dec 7, 2012 14:33:52 GMT -5
Thanks for that J. I've often wondered how open pollinated can mean Not open pollinated.
So, as I see it, all actual OP seed is a hybrid. Unless, by some fluke, both donors are identical.
Is this right.? Sound logical to me.
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Post by terracotta on Dec 10, 2012 16:14:04 GMT -5
Thanks you for talking about this Joseph, this one is something that really bugs me that the gardening and breeding community has adopted. Logically it should mean exactly as it sounds. How the phrase came to mean the exact opposite meaning confounds me beyond belief. This is a topic that needs to be put into some sort of book. Whether it is written by you or someone else. I like your alternative phrase "Promiscuously Pollinated", that one is very good. "Bee pollinated" might also work, but it's not as descriptive. /dp/1604693649 [/url][/quote] first the idea of open pollinated is used very differently when applied to corn in seed catalogs. Read any one it will say " your corn will not be as sweet or as we have described if one parent is different then what we have stated it is compatible with". essentially the sugary enhanced sweet corn will only be super sweet if it inherits 2 copies of the SE+ gene. otherwise it is a different phenotype since it is the F1 generation of the two parent plants similar to yellow corn with blue kernels in it. article garden.lofthouse.com/sweet-corn-breeding.phtmlI like bee pollinated better it sounds more natural. Otherwise it sounds like you have ran around with a paintbrush without cleaning it off first. check page 71 of the 2013 current seed savers catalog it will have an article about breeding tomatoes. It comes from my repeated e-mails ( and their "why are you e-mailing us?") about what is open pollinated versus hybrid. Remember a pure seed catalog is taking about crossing plants!  |
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Post by terracotta on Dec 10, 2012 16:35:05 GMT -5
Terracotta: Nice research. I particularly liked the graphs of pollen dispersal. I think I'd attribute the poor quality of this fruit to mechanical damage when the fruit was very small. What kind of machine? I doubt a hoe, rake or shovel. Do you use cover crops or just till and then wait till next season? If so your loosing the small amount of soil you have. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 10, 2012 17:40:34 GMT -5
I meant the term "mechanical" in the sense of purely physical damage, and not biological, or chemical, or environmental, so physical damage could also be caused by gophers, or racoons, or knifes, or feet, or insects, or kids, or rocks, or birds, or sprinkler pipe, or deer, etc...
Winter cover crops are a luxury for people that live in warmer climates. In a typical year, my garden is covered with snow from mid-November until mid-March. Other times of the year, if I don't have vegetables actively growing, then I am growing weeds as a cover crop. The topsoil in my fields is around 3 feet deep. I have no way of measuring whether my practices are adding or subtracting topsoil from the fields, but we've been farming in my village, without cover crops, for 152 years, and there seems to be an abundance of topsoil still.
Oh, actually I do have a way to measure... It looks like the cement along the driveway has sunk into the ground 3" during the last 30 years. I'm going to interpret that to mean that we add about an inch of topsoil per decade. That would go a long ways toward explaining why so many of the older houses in my village look like they were poorly graded. It's not that they started out that way, the earth has been slowly creeping up on them. And the bottom of the wire fencing that was put up 50 year ago along the edge of my field is buried about 4". The irrigation water deposits soil. The wind deposits soil. The plants leave residues.
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