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Post by canadamike on Mar 22, 2008 22:51:21 GMT -5
Welcome persimmonpudding !! Glad to have you here!  Hey guys and gals, check out our friends site!! www.persimmonpudding.com/I hate people who tempt me with fruits we don't have!!! ;D |
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Post by persimmonpudding on Mar 24, 2008 6:27:55 GMT -5
;D
Hello and thanks. I am in Kentucky, Zone 6a. However, I remember reading that folks in Ontario were growing common persimmons though I'm sure it was a cultivar. I'll poke around my files and get back to you. I was informed that the Hartmann Plant Company is tissue culturing a cultivar of this species that can be recommended for zone 4. I do not yet know if it is available.
It was an extremely important food historically. As settlers expanded throughout the US, many times, so did their plants.
The USDA database has a failry broad "natural" range. It lists the
following states as part of the range:
AL
AR
DC
DE
FL
GA
IA
IL
IN
KS
KY
LA
MD
MO
MS
NC
NE
NJ
NY
OH
OK
PA
RI
SC
TN
TX
VA
WV
It also lists UT, but I would tend to think it's more due to settlement and folks bringing plants & seeds with them as they moved.
Anyway, I can confirm common persimmons being grown (and producing
usable fruit) in these additional states (off the top of my head):
CA
ID
MI
OR
UT
WI
also the following non-US countries:
Canada (Ontario)
Spain
France
UK (England)
Do any of you grow this in an area not mentioned above?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by persimmonpudding on Mar 30, 2008 9:15:39 GMT -5
A couple of questions have arisen in private mail and I thought it would help more folks if I answered here.
QUESTION: What are some of the hardier persimmons? (asked due to my mention of Ontario)
A: Meader is a widely available cultivar that I know is being grown in a good many northern areas including MI, WI, NY, etc. I believe it is also among those also being grown in Ontario.
I'm in the process of cataloging the various cultivars for Diospyros virginiana and will have them on the page. It may take months for several of them...maybe even longer for those which may be lost.
Several cultivars of this species are being grown in Zone 4 though I'm aware that microclimate is everything (which allows some folks to say they're good even in Zone 3) and that some cultivars which are not believed to survive in Zone 4 are grown in that zone. The natural range extends about along Zone 5 and above (but again, see the microclimate comment). I'm putting together a list for the site that should be available soon. I'll let folks know when it is ready.
QUESTION: Can they be container grown in a deep container?
A: I've never seen this done. I can say that I have planted thousands in restoration acreage and they are difficult (along with hickories) to transplant due to the very deep root system. That same deep root system might prove problematic for container growth. Sounds like a good experiment though. They do grow slowly.
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Post by cff on Mar 30, 2008 9:39:10 GMT -5
Dang I missed this thread somehow  We have wild Persimmons here in NC, however I have noticed they are becoming scares. The deer opossums and birds attack them as soon as they ripen so unless it's a tree close to your house it's hard to get any of the fruit. Does anyone know what verity grows wild in NC? I didn't know there were different verities. Can they be grown from seed or are most propagated by grafting? What would be the best way to share this tree with others who would like to grow them? I was sitting here thinking of one large tree close to my house at the edge of a nearby field but it's the only one that comes to mind. I'm thinking It would be a good opportunity to add a few to my small orchard. Thanks |
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Post by canadamike on Mar 31, 2008 13:09:51 GMT -5
PP, with your little comment on zone 4 and even 3 in micro-climates, you are teasing me ro an unbearable point ;D The question is: can I get both sexes trees? I mean, in a reliable way, I can't afford to plant zillions of them to make sure I got a female AND a male... I think I have a spot for them, where they would get lots of sun and be protected from winter winds. You are not being nice... now I can't sleep  Which are the most cold hardy varieties? Please note that Ontario goes from the Antartic to the southernest part of Canada, that's quite a range... Is it true they are really better than the oriental ones? Glad to have a persimmon guy on board!! Now, let's make him scratch his head Michel |
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Post by plantsnobin on Mar 31, 2008 15:45:31 GMT -5
For those of you who really like persimmons, may I suggest a trip to Mitchell, IN for the annual Persimmon Festival? And a source for trees in the Nolin River Nursery in KY. I haven't ordered from them yet, but I hear good things about them. There is also an experimental persimmon farm near me, owned by Don Compton. I bought a couple of trees from him last year and they seem to have made it through the winter OK. I guess if space is an issue, it would be better to go with a named cultivar, but I just don't really like grafted trees. Plain old species is ok with me. Now I am hungry for some pudding.
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Post by tomc on Mar 31, 2008 18:15:28 GMT -5
;D Do any of you grow this in an area not mentioned above? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Well PP I have them in my garden not big enough to move to their own permanent spots (yet). NH-USA |
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Post by persimmonpudding on Apr 5, 2008 16:48:15 GMT -5
Does anyone know what verity grows wild in NC? I didn't know there were different verities. Any Diospyros virginiana should do well for you in NC. You can go with wild-type seedings or even seedlings from cultivars...or you can plant them and then graft named varieties onto them once they get a little bigger. It depends on you. I know a good number of folks who propaget from seed, then use the seedlings for grafting named cultivars. If you want to share them with others, you might have additional considerations. They send down a DEEP root and hurting this could hurt the survival chances. They do take a little care until they get established. Hickories are similar. I have ordered bundles of trees from the state forestry nurseries. Many (if not most) states have a govt nursery and most of them within persimmon range have persimmons. In bundles, the seedlings are pretty inexpensive and they get delivered to your door. Can't make it much easier! You can use those for grafting once they get established as well. |
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Post by persimmonpudding on Apr 5, 2008 17:02:34 GMT -5
PP, with your little comment on zone 4 and even 3 in micro-climates, you are teasing me ro an unbearable point ;D Then my task is complete! ;D Unfortunately, no...there is no relaible way to tell seedlings until they flower. Understood. In the northern part of the range, you can put it into the "experimental" category...and it may all come down to microclimate. I'll see what I can do about running down some folks growing up north and get back to you. Where exactly are you? Absolutely! I want to be a bit careful though. I like asian persimmons. They have their place and their uses...both astringent types and non-astringent types. However, if I'm baking, D. virginiana always wins. Better, richer, more full flavors....some slightly spicy, some with hints of caramel...all fine. Asian persimmons typicaly have more fluid. So, you can use any persimmon recipes with native persimmon pulp and should do well. But when you take a recipe developed for D. virginiana pulp, and want to use asian persimmons, it will require some tweaking...typically a little less in wet ingredients and more pulp due to the asian persimmons being a bit "milder" (for want of a better word). BTW, I've seen 6-10 references online playing up asian persimmons and saying the natives were less flavorful. If that is the case, I'll chew a mouthful of green persimmons into pulp and swallow. I've seen some even say natives were bitter  ...never happened. Nothing is sweeter as the orange ambrosia...not that I'm partial! Seriously, I am still a fan of asian persimmons, but they really do pale in comparison to D. virginiana. That said, you can't do the old "ice cream" trick by freezing asian persimmons and spooning out icy pulp. You also can't use the natives like you would non-astringent asian persimmons (like Fuyus) in fruit salads and such. |
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Post by persimmonpudding on Apr 5, 2008 17:18:06 GMT -5
For those of you who really like persimmons, may I suggest a trip to Mitchell, IN for the annual Persimmon Festival? I'll be there!!! Folks...keep these dates for you calendar: September 21-27, 2008 = Annual Mitchell Indiana Persimmon Festival and there are several links off my site to other sites with info. C'mon...how can ya resist? ;D [/quote] And a source for trees is the Nolin River Nursery in KY. I haven't ordered from them yet, but I hear good things about them. [/quote] I can wholeheartedly second this nomination. My site has contact info and the link in the "sources" page. The Brittains are decent knowledgible folks. You can't go wrong. There is nothing wrong with wild-type. I like both wild trees and cultivars...but for different reasons. Besides, you never know where that next new persimmon will come from! Plus...you never have to worry about whether the graft will take and grow strong. BTW, The Kentucky Nutgrowers Association and the Indiana Nut Grower's Association had a joint field meeting at Don's last year. I am not ashamed to say I coveted.  I took a mess of pics...then got involved in gabbing and didn't have time to take more. Once (and if) I get some OKs, I hope to upload them onto the site. |
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Post by plantsnobin on Apr 6, 2008 7:56:07 GMT -5
I have been to Don's a couple of times. 2 or 3 years ago he gave a grafting workshop for locals, and then last year I called him to see if he had any trees for sale. He did and I bought 2. Saijo and Valeene Beauty. The graft on VB has me worried, it looks like ol' Granny Addie's finger. She chopped the end off while splitting kindling, doctor managed to sew it back on, but it was at about a 45 degree angle. Considering that was probably 60 years ago, not bad. But, I think that as the tree grows, it is going to split at the bend. That is why I don't like grafted trees. Always seems to be a weakness at the graft, tree does ok until it is older, then you have lots of time invested in it. Anyway, if you do make it to the persimmon fest, stop by-I live in Paoli.
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Post by canadamike on Apr 10, 2008 18:06:59 GMT -5
I am in eastern Ontario, in Rockland, across the river from western Quebec, zone 4a. I can plant some in an area totally protected against winter wind, they would get the sun untill 7 pm or so, and the metal from the barn would reflect sun in winter.
Are they easily grafted? I could always solve the problem by planting seedlings and graft mom and dad on them!
All I would need would be scions, I could also end up with many varieties on each tree to select the best local ones.
Thanks,
Michel
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Post by persimmonpudding on Apr 11, 2008 7:02:09 GMT -5
But, I think that as the tree grows, it is going to split at the bend. That is why I don't like grafted trees. Always seems to be a weakness at the graft, tree does ok until it is older, then you have lots of time invested in it. There is always a danger of graft failures but I have seen 40 and 50 year-old grafted persimmon trees that took well and grew strong. You are correct though and I'm not terribly keen on some of the grafted trees I've seen. It's also often why you see gaps in some rows in grafted orchards...until the gaps are refilled! I'd be eager to do so! Thanks very much. |
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Post by persimmonpudding on Apr 11, 2008 7:25:28 GMT -5
I am in eastern Ontario, in Rockland, across the river from western Quebec, zone 4a. I can plant some in an area totally protected against winter wind, they would get the sun untill 7 pm or so, and the metal from the barn would reflect sun in winter. Sounds like a good experiment...I'd do it. Weeelllllll.... "easily" grafted is hard to pin down. On the whole, yes they're easy to graft. However, even the best grafters lose grafts. Down here people who aren't growing their own from seed buy bundles of 100+ seedlings from the state nurseries and use those for grafting. They're typically very reasonable. I'm still working on finding some folks closer to you to see if they can give some feedback on varieties near you which have performed well. Additionally, look to local or national nut grower groups and fruit explorer type groups for a lot of helpful folks and possible scion swaps. |
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Post by plantsnobin on Apr 11, 2008 7:30:44 GMT -5
Persimmon, I was just wondering what other if any, things you grow. I would love to find more info on some of the more unusual things, from someone in this area who has hands on experience. I have hardy kiwi planted, aronia, elderberries, serviceberries and I fell for the 'honeyberry' nonsense. It would be great to be able to see and perhaps taste these before planting. Do you know of any experimental farms that have these types of things planted? Thanks
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...never happened. Nothing is sweeter as the orange ambrosia...not that I'm partial! Seriously, I am still a fan of asian persimmons, but they really do pale in comparison to D. virginiana. That said, you can't do the old "ice cream" trick by freezing asian persimmons and spooning out icy pulp. You also can't use the natives like you would non-astringent asian persimmons (like Fuyus) in fruit salads and such.
I took a mess of pics...then got involved in gabbing and didn't have time to take more. Once (and if) I get some OKs, I hope to upload them onto the site.