James
grub
Greetings from Utah -- James
Posts: 93
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Post by James on Dec 3, 2012 12:16:55 GMT -5
Webster's dictionary says a landrace is a swine.
Wikipedia defines a land race as: A landrace is a local variety of a domesticated animal or plant species which has developed largely by natural processes, by adaptation to the natural and cultural environment in which it lives.
Well, its obvious that swine is not what is meant when we refer to the things we grow in our gardens.
Look closely at Wiki's definition and especially the part about " developed largely by natural processes".
OK, taking that into consideration, can we really say that anything that has been developed in our gardens with any degree of gardener selection is a landrace?
I believe the sagebrush that grows on my mountain acreage is a landrace, but I question if there are any true landraces left in our gardens. I will agree that there are plenty of genetically diverse hybrids.
What's in a name?
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Post by petitvilaincanard on Dec 4, 2012 15:41:35 GMT -5
For me landracebreeding sounds like a kind of oxymore,just like heirloombreeding.
Instead of extending the meaning of a term beyond its original meaning to cover unnamed situations I think it's sometimes better to use different terms for different things
"Adaptivar" sounds quite good,specially because the "adapt" that reflects both the fact that it is adapted to some kind of environment and that it has capacity to adapt to changing environmental factors.But this could be "population variety" to,allthough this doesn't sound so cool.
"Landrace breeding" would become adaptivar breeding indicating the goal:the adaptivar.
"population breeding" sounds very good to me because it reflects what you're working with and has a more general scope.
A population that's constituted of several selfing lines I would call "polyline" ( or "multiline"), not an adaptivar because the capability to adapt is very limited.
In a "polyline" however occasional crosses can take place and there is no sharp distinction between polyline and adaptivar except when crosses can never take place.
The distinction would depend on crossing rate ( and maybe populationsize although this may seem strange).
A adaptivar or polyline that lacks homogenity I would call "genepool".
On the other hand someone who has seeds to offer can call it whatever he wants.
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Post by templeton on Dec 4, 2012 16:27:50 GMT -5
Nice distinctions, PVC.
re the Websters def: I think it refers to a variety of pig called a "Landrace" pig.
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Post by steev on Dec 4, 2012 20:05:21 GMT -5
While back, I was perusing a site listing swine, which had photos of various "Landrace" hogs: French, English, Danish, etc. To my untrained eye, they all looked pretty much the same. Perhaps they have differing accents, oui?
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Post by adamus on Dec 7, 2012 16:21:41 GMT -5
A landrace id adapted to your land, the "race " of that land, and a grex is a cross of one or more varieties to see what they cross into.
Crossing six different melons one season is not a landrace, but having melons which grow well in your area, and grow well most seasons, as well as growing better than a commercial variety, would be a landrace, surely.?
My Garlic is an example. I've grown some garlic every year from the garlic and its offspring, which I purchased seven years ago. It grows better than garlic of the same name I've bought, Californian Late, and it grows bigger and in less time. It also grows better in the cold. They're both the same variety, but mine grows better. I 'spose it's a landrace now, or very close to it.
And i reckon my landrace garlic would be great with slow roasted landrace pork.
I have a feeling grex is one of those words thrown around to confuse the Great Unwashed.
For myself, I consider a grex to be a deliberate swapping of genes in a variety, and a landrace is an adaptive strain of a variety specifically suited to my growing area.
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James
grub
Greetings from Utah -- James
Posts: 93
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Post by James on Dec 8, 2012 13:38:13 GMT -5
I assume you have been cloning these plants not growing seed? I suspect the reason it grows better is that it was grown on better soil and the stock you plant is more vigorous. It is still the same as the original stock genetically. Landrace? Its your garlic, call it what you will. I would call it whatever the original stock was called. It hasn't changed or adapted. Perhaps it has been grown or stored under better conditions? Does that make it worthy of a new name?
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Post by circumspice on Dec 8, 2012 15:20:25 GMT -5
This subject is just about as clear as mud...
All we are doing is splitting hairs now.
*throws up hands & walks away mumbling obscenities*
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Post by adamus on Dec 8, 2012 15:27:42 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right James, (and circ.  . The soil may be better etc., but it is adapting to my garden. It has more resilience to the cold and grows bigger and better. I have a feeling a landrace takes a long time. Tiny changes over a long period. |
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Post by raymondo on Dec 9, 2012 2:19:36 GMT -5
I've got a patch of a number of different green-fleshed melon cultivars. I intend letting them cross as they may. Should I be lucky enough to get any ripe melons (I didn't last year!), I'll save seeds and grow them next year. I just want a green-fleshed melon that ripens most years, instead of every five or six years. If it works, I'll have the beginnings of an adapting population of green-fleshed melons.
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Post by terracotta on Dec 10, 2012 15:34:10 GMT -5
This subject is just about as clear as mud... All we are doing is splitting hairs now. *throws up hands & walks away mumbling obscenities* Perfect reason to have a thread on it. Many people on this forum say they have or making a landrace but really where does one draw the line from genetically diverse hybrid? This year I got one viable seed from a watermelon out of ten varieties that grew into a seedling in my greenhouse. Is this a landrace since it is the only survivor and a F1? |
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Post by terracotta on Dec 10, 2012 18:35:34 GMT -5
interesting point "I work towards phenotype similarity within my landrace populations. For example I grow a promiscuously pollinated population of sweet corn. All the plants in the population are similar in that they require about 75 days to maturity. They all grow about 6 feet tall. They all thrive in my soil and climate. I allow other traits to vary, such as number of tillers, and cob size, and flower color, and leaf color, and kernel color. That is not stabilized in the sense used by the seed industry. I grow a crookneck landrace. A non-observant person would say that they are stabilized crookneck, but they are not: There are slight differences in fruit shape, and proportions of the neck/bulb, and in skin bumpiness, and in color tone, and in flesh thickness, etc... I maintain the illusion that they are stabilized by careful roguing, and by growing them in isolation in a field all by themselves. Early in the growing season I mercilessly chop out anything that does not produce fruits that look exactly like a crookneck fruit. However, I do not do any culling because of growth characteristics such as leaf shape, or differences in internode length, so there are a few plants with sprawling growth habit rather than the more common bush habit" alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=stuff&thread=6936&page=1 |
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Post by steev on Dec 10, 2012 21:33:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure I don't resent the notion that Oz soil could be better than California soil, but I don't want to go there (having done so).
Adamus, I think your California Late garlic must have been grown in Southern California (Oops! I think I've betrayed another bias!).
I think the whole "landrace" thing is essentially "it's worked fine for us, here, for a long time, so that's what we save seeds of to grow next season." Makes sense to me.
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Post by terracotta on Dec 11, 2012 17:46:42 GMT -5
would this classify it as a landrace since they came up on their own therefore native? " I did not plant any this year as we had a VERY mild winter and hundreds of these came up on their own. They have a very distinct flower too and there is no mistakeing it. Again, this plant has kept us very entertained this year. ." rareseeds.com/vegetables-p-z/tomatoes/red/reisetomate-tomato.html |
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Post by adamus on Dec 12, 2012 14:36:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure I don't resent the notion that Oz soil could be better than California soil, but I don't want to go there (having done so). Adamus, I think your California Late garlic must have been grown in Southern California (Oops! I think I've betrayed another bias!). I think the whole "landrace" thing is essentially "it's worked fine for us, here, for a long time, so that's what we save seeds of to grow next season." Makes sense to me. Yep Steev, I totally agree. This garlic came from southern Victoria, he's grown it quite a few years, and now I've grown it quite a few. If it keeps producing good garlic, better than new stuff, then i figure it's adapting to my soil. |
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Post by terracotta on Dec 12, 2012 15:25:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure I don't resent the notion that Oz soil could be better than California soil, but I don't want to go there (having done so). Adamus, I think your California Late garlic must have been grown in Southern California (Oops! I think I've betrayed another bias!). I think the whole "landrace" thing is essentially "it's worked fine for us, here, for a long time, so that's what we save seeds of to grow next season." Makes sense to me. Yep Steev, I totally agree. This garlic came from southern Victoria, he's grown it quite a few years, and now I've grown it quite a few. If it keeps producing good garlic, better than new stuff, then i figure it's adapting to my soil. \ That's only possible if 1. high mutation rate which had changed it 2. virus altering the genome 3. grown it out for at least 10 years 4. exposure to some chemical which mutated it |
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. The soil may be better etc., but it is adapting to my garden. It has more resilience to the cold and grows bigger and better.