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Post by Drahkk on Mar 16, 2013 8:48:16 GMT -5
Well.... To begin with, they are already buried in the bucket, so I'm kinda committed to that method at present. As for grafting, well... I suck mightly. I tried it and the results were 100% death. Got LOADS of pear root stock though!!!! I DO need to try again, but I'm not ready to commit the precious hazels to that process. I know that feeling. Tried my hand at grafting for the first time this year. The 9 plum scions I grafted to wild rootstock have done nothing. Zip, zilch, nada. They're not dead yet, so I'm still holding out hope, but here's the rub: the 4 that I just scraped, rolled in hormone, and stuck in a pot have all bloomed and are starting to leaf. Guess grafting isn't among my talents. I probably whittled on them too much, as MikeH mentioned above. Oh well, c'est la vie! As long as at least 1 or 2 survive I'll be happy. MB |
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Post by khoomeizhi on Mar 16, 2013 19:07:37 GMT -5
i've had proportionally more success with grafting than with cuttings, not sure where i'm going wrong either. oh well.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 16, 2013 20:24:09 GMT -5
I NEED to practice grafting. There is just this thing called "time" that I have to find some more of.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 22:45:58 GMT -5
My first successes with hardwood cuttings are with 2+ year old wood. I use some skinny rebar, to make the hole go all the way to the bottom of a large planter of mostly-clay, stick thicker switches down the hole, water daily. They are leafing out, with no signs of stress. I do this, just as the buds are starting to swell, but before they have opened.
Fails:
Skinny cuttings. Thicker ones seem to stay wetter inside.
Bending the cuttings, to take them home in a bag. Just because they're flexible, doesn't mean it's good for the plant.
Not enough buds. No new ones are going to appear.
Wood going into dormancy. I assume energy is going into the branches, when they are waking up.
In the sun. Partial shade is less stressful.
The major use of grafting, as I see it, is to limit the growth of orchard trees, by putting them on dwarf or semi dwarf stock, so it's easier to reach them from the ground. Instead, I would pursue this for improved vigor, such as the cold tolerance, conferred to cucumbers.
In the case of fruit trees, it was counterintuitive to me that the root stock did not have the be from same kind of plant as the scion, but I think this is a worthwhile line of experimentation.
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Post by MikeH on Mar 17, 2013 15:35:59 GMT -5
The major use of grafting, as I see it, is to limit the growth of orchard trees, by putting them on dwarf or semi dwarf stock, so it's easier to reach them from the ground. Certainly, density of planting and ease of harvesting are key reasons, even essential reasons. Fruit is purchased not grown by the vast majority of us. Thus fruit growing is a business for most growers. Bushels/acre quickly, cheaply, and easily harvested is what it's all about given our current food production and distribution system. But there are other, more horticultural reasons as well. If you have a new variety of apple that is worth sharing, you will be starting with just one tree. Forget about reproducing it via seeds because they do not come true. You can stool or layer the variety but there is risk in that you may kill the tree. Lets's say you are successful and get four or five clones the first year. In a year or two, each of those can be stooled/layeredand used to produce more trees. It's a slow process. Or you can take scion wood and graft onto an huge supply of rootstock. All you need is a piece of scion wood with 2 or 3 buds on it and you're away. You could get two or three feet of growth per year in the water shoots which would give you 6-9 new grafted trees per water shoot. If you get 4 or 5 watershoots, then you could be getting 24-45 new trees from each tree each year. From grafting to getting scion wood could be 3-5 years if you are using a dwarf or semi-dwarf. And apple rootstock has been bred for resistance to rust and other diseases as well as pests. Some are suited to one type of soil or another. These characteristics are extended into the grafted scion. Most people do not have the room to grow standard trees, hence the value of dwarfs and semi-dwarfs. I'm not arguing for graft trees or arguing against standards. I think that there's a place for both. |
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Post by steev on Mar 17, 2013 21:18:08 GMT -5
I begin to think that I'll be happier when buying grafted "semi-dwarf" trees, if I just plant them deep enough for the graft to self-root and prune them to stay low; I've lost too many grafted trees, winding up with only a living rootstock. So many things are grafted so, not because it's durable, but because it facilitates rapid production of grafted clones, which is also why so many grafts are sold on other species, often unsustainable long-term.
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Post by Walk on Mar 18, 2013 9:09:59 GMT -5
Hazelnuts - we increase by digging out shoots that are already rooted since they are clump forming. We've been cloning our best bushes which we originally got from Badgersett.
Apples - we've got M7 rootstocks, which manage to sucker quite a bit. We dig up a sucker with a few roots, graft it, and plant it out either in a nursery bed or directly to where we want it. We've done hundreds of apple grafts (some on dwarfing stock and some on seedlings), most years with nearly 100% success, never using the "correct" materials or method. Our bench grafts have always been done with 2 people so we just cut a splice (diagonal cut) without the cleft. Makes for easier cutting but you'll need a second person to hold the scion to the rootstock while you wrap it. To wrap, we've always used wide, large rubber bands cut open to make a strip. After the graft is wrapped tightly leaving no part of the splice exposed, we use some 2" wide masking tape to cover the rubber band. The scion is cut off to about 4 buds maximum and the top cut has a drop of candle wax applied to keep it from drying out. Not cutting the cleft means that you'll have to protect the graft until it's growing together so be careful not to knock into it. We once had a graft ruined by a bird who decided to perch on top. Anyway, once the graft is leafing out, rub off all leaves below the graft. Remove the tape after about a month or so. The rubber band should eventually come off too. Usually I just loosen the end where it was tucked in and let it degrade in place.
We've done hardwood cuttings with willow, rosemary, grapes and aronia. All of these are very easy.
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Post by MikeH on Mar 19, 2013 2:09:24 GMT -5
I know that feeling. Tried my hand at grafting for the first time this year. The 9 plum scions I grafted to wild rootstock have done nothing. Zip, zilch, nada. They're not dead yet, so I'm still holding out hope, but here's the rub: the 4 that I just scraped, rolled in hormone, and stuck in a pot have all bloomed and are starting to leaf. Guess grafting isn't among my talents. I probably whittled on them too much, as MikeH mentioned above. Oh well, c'est la vie! As long as at least 1 or 2 survive I'll be happy. MB Timing is critical. You need the scion to be dormant and the host to be just breaking dormancy. The only way to insure that is to take scion wood cuttings in late winter while the tree is still dormant, store them properly in the fridge and then watch closely for signs of bud break. Besides getting a good fit, it's also important to keep the wound from drying so airtight taping is important. To store them properly, the cut end should be dipped in wax to seal in moisture. The wood should be wrapped in dry paper towel and tightly sealed in a plastic bag. Store away from fruit that gives off ethylene gas to avoid the chance of the scion wood breaking dormancy. Grafting tape is pretty cheap - $4.95 for 90 feet - www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=278 That'll give you upwards of 200 grafts. I really like the Parafilm tape. It's self-adhesive but doesn't stick to everything it touches. As the wound heals and callouses over, the expanding wood breaks the tape naturally so you never have a problem of removing tape too early or having the branch constricted because you've forgotten to check the graft and left the tape on too long. That should be your only equipment cost if you use a box knife instead of a fancy, schmancy grafting knife. Nothing wrong with that (I have one) but there's no need. Mike |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 21:51:42 GMT -5
The other reason for grafting, as I have heard, is to change the shape of the branches. Will the scion wood eventually match the shape of whatever specie it is being grafted onto?
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Post by MikeH on Mar 23, 2013 6:11:14 GMT -5
 I'm not sure how you're using species. Apple grafts onto apple or crab apple. Apple will graft onto pear but fails after a few years. Apricot grafts onto apricot but in cool, wet climates is better on plum. Crategus, Pyrus communis, Cydonia oblonga, Mespilus germanica, Sorbus domestica, and Eryobotria japonica all graft onto each other. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 15:33:18 GMT -5
Local cherry orchards are all apparently grafted onto elm. The suckers need to be pruned back, every Spring.
I have also read about pears being grafted onto Ash.
If bushy roses, grafted onto climbing stock, become climbing roses, does the grafting of trees change their eventual shape?
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Post by 12540dumont on Mar 25, 2013 19:18:39 GMT -5
Awesome photo Mike!
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 26, 2013 11:31:19 GMT -5
I have that photo in a book I got from "Watchamacallit" Gardens.... Bonfante Gardens? Right near you Holly.
Root stock is supposed to give certain "qualities" to plants that otherwise would not have them... sorta... example, a while back Napa lost a lot of grapes to phytophora (not sure if the spelling is correct there). The solution was to graft the "foreign" grapes onto native (muscadine?) grape roots. Mind you, I'm going on memories from more than 15 years back here. Feel free to correct me!
When I made my first request from the GRIN repository I was surprised to received the scion wood and totally stupefied to discover that I was expected to GRAFT the stuff! I did the best I could and failed at the doing. HOWEVER, I researched high and low and I now know a thing or two about the "theory" of grafting as well as the qualities of various root stocks, apple and pear in particular. I actually purchased several root stock pears which are now stuck in the ground around the property. When I am sure they are solid and growing, THEN I will make another request from GRIN and I think I will be most satisfied with the results.
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Post by Hristo on Mar 26, 2013 17:28:24 GMT -5
Grafting tape is pretty cheap - $4.95 for 90 feet - www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=278 That'll give you upwards of 200 grafts. I really like the Parafilm tape. It's self-adhesive but doesn't stick to everything it touches. As the wound heals and callouses over, the expanding wood breaks the tape naturally so you never have a problem of removing tape too early or having the branch constricted because you've forgotten to check the graft and left the tape on too long. Mike, Can you compare that Parafilm (grafting) tape with Parafilm M (laboratory) tape? I have used Parafilm M and it's great, except one big problem - it breaks in less that a week if it's lit by the sun. I have the grafting Parafilm, but I got it only 1-2 weeks ago and have not tried it yet. My first impressions are that it's stronger than Parafilm M, but is not as soft and does not "stick" as well. I only hope it lasts at least for 2 weeks when lit by the sun!? |
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Post by steev on Mar 26, 2013 17:57:55 GMT -5
I thought grafting tape was pretty much Parafilm, except narrower in the roll; I've tried sealing my grafts this year by smearing on the wax from a toilet-seal ring; can't beat the price. I suppose it's melty in sun, but I think I only care that it stays an air-and-moisture seal, which it seems to. We'll see how things take or not.
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