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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 4, 2013 17:00:57 GMT -5
Holly, your first link doesn't work over here due to shortened /.../ part in the middle. Now that's one advantage of helda flat french beans over runner beans, the seeds are much smaller and as such much easier to send around the world... (They're okay as a drying bean, not special) I actually do have runner beans for next year, an unnamed variety from a seed-swap day with purple/black speckled seeds, I suppose something like 'scarlet runner', which is a common variety. I gather that the indicvidual varieties are not that stable anyway as regular beans, since P. coccineus is reputed to be a self-incompatible cross-pollinating outbreeder while P. phaseolus is mostly self-pollinating... Or am I wrong here? Aren't those giant white beans lima beans (P. lunatus). some may be, but the ones I saw most definitely weren't; they were WAAY to plump. They looked like terminally oversized white common beans, which is a pretty good description of scarlet runner seed shape (a few were sort of kidney shaped). I suppose I'll have to make a point of actually BUYING a bag or two the next time I'm there, and see what happens when they are planted. |
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Post by khoomeizhi on Apr 4, 2013 21:05:29 GMT -5
hortus, i've had bad luck with the variety 'helda', but am a big fan in general of flat pole beans. the variety 'northeaster' from johnny's has been a regular part of my gardens. very productive, big, juicy beans to about a foot long/an inch wide. i could probably eat a couple pounds just standing by the trellis.
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Post by davida on Apr 4, 2013 23:07:55 GMT -5
P.S. A beaniac is someone who has a love of beans in all their diverse forms! It's almost like Iris Virus...a disease that has you purchasing more iris rhizomes, even though you have no more room for them. It's a slippery slope. Wheee. Wheee. As I go sliding down the slippery slope. I was on the edge and Holly pushed me over! Really love watching the fava plants grow. A new bean variety for me, again thanks to Holly. |
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Post by galina on Apr 5, 2013 4:06:55 GMT -5
Interesting. Does that cross self-pollinate, cross-pollinate with itself or cross-polilnate with the parents? What P. vulgaris variety is the parent in your version? Did they come from vulgaris or coccineus seeds? (Right now I'm dreaming of a perennial 'helda X runner' bean useful for permaculture...) The interspecies crosses are more like ph vulgaris now than coccineus, but just to be on the safe side I grow them a little way apart from my other beans. They are certainly self pollinating, but there may be an element of bee involved. They are not suited for permaculture, because they are now more like ph vulgaris (apart from the cold resistance) and don't have the storage root that ph coccineus have. You can harvest ph coccineus roots before frost and overwinter them and they will resprout for a second year, but the interspecies crosses do not resprout - I have tried that. They are hardier but not frost hardy - ph coccineus is only perennial in climates without frost or if you dig up the roots and overwinter them frostfree, then replant. My F1 flower was bicoloured, red and white and the previous year I had been growing Painted Lady runnerbean, which is bicoloured. I guess that was the pollen father. The mother ph vulgaris was a landrace bean from the republic of Georgia. |
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Post by galina on Apr 5, 2013 4:09:47 GMT -5
Isn't the bean they use for Gigantes in Greece a runner. The dried ones I saw at the supermarket sure looked like it could be. Yes it is. |
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Post by galina on Apr 5, 2013 4:27:50 GMT -5
. I gather that the indicvidual varieties are not that stable anyway as regular beans, since P. coccineus is reputed to be a self-incompatible cross-pollinating outbreeder while P. phaseolus is mostly self-pollinating... Or am I wrong here? Runnerbeans are fully stable bought as named varieties in the UK, because seed sellers can only sell pure varieties, that have been prevented from cross-pollinating. The gardener can keep a variety pure by either bagging and handpollinating individual flower trusses, or by only growing one variety if nobody in the vicinity is growing runnerbeans. The rate of self-pollination vs needing to be hand pollinated in runnerbeans varies greatly. I found bagging and slight shaking was enough for Painted Lady, other varieties need hand pollinating as well as bagging. The breeders have done some selection towards self pollinating runnerbeans because those set pods better and there are a few of those varieties on the market now. For example St George's Bean: www.thompson-morgan.com/vegetables/vegetable-seeds/pea-and-bean-seeds/runner-bean-st-george/4775TMPure breeding runnerbeans all have the same seed colour. Insuk's W K and other short podded ph coccineus types, that are grown for harvesting mature beans inside, are mostly crossed and their seeds look different from each other. Sadie's Horse bean for example has many different types of seed colour, Insuk's has 3 different seed colours. For these varieties only seed size matters. Being crossed might even help with that characteristic, if we think about 'hybrid vigor'. However the Greek Gigandes runnerbeans are always white seeded and therefore probably genetically true breeding. |
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Post by robertb on Apr 5, 2013 13:18:08 GMT -5
Gigantes is a runner. I'm thinking more in terms of grexes myself for some of the outbreeders, but rather than have a generalised mix of runners, I'm more likely to keep white, red and black varieties segregated and grow them alternate years.
We don't see many in the shops for the reason you give, Hortus, and the ones we do see have usually been left to grow far too large. I used to loathe the things since my father always picked them at that stage, when they're pretty coarse. It's only since I've had my own allotment I've discovered how good they are when picked young.
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Post by raymondo on Apr 5, 2013 16:57:58 GMT -5
...ph coccineus is only perennial in climates without frost ... I think perhaps it depends on the level of frost and the type of climate. We get regular -5°C overnight temps with dips to -10°C but winters tend to be on the dry side and the ground does not freeze. Runner beans perennialize here without a problem. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 5, 2013 18:19:11 GMT -5
Gigantes is a runner. I'm thinking more in terms of grexes myself for some of the outbreeders, but rather than have a generalised mix of runners, I'm more likely to keep white, red and black varieties segregated and grow them alternate years. We don't see many in the shops for the reason you give, Hortus, and the ones we do see have usually been left to grow far too large. I used to loathe the things since my father always picked them at that stage, when they're pretty coarse. It's only since I've had my own allotment I've discovered how good they are when picked young. Thanks for the conformation, especially as I am unable to test them myself at the moment (I went to the store I had seed them in, but there are currently out of them, and with that store it's hard to tell when something they are out of wil come back into stock, if ever). I'm not sure however, that Gigantes is as genetically pure as implied (or at least the one's I saw were) All of the beans were indeed the same color (white) but not all the same shape (most were roundish, but quite a few had the kidney shape of something like scarlet Emperor) when and if they get some more in, I'll have to pick up a bag or two, just to see what breeds out (I have to go back in a month or so anyway, to check on the mystery vetch) |
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Post by 12540dumont on Apr 5, 2013 19:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Apr 6, 2013 2:13:26 GMT -5
Found the .ppt now, quite interesting, thanks Holly!
I don't know gigantes that well, but I always supposed the 'giant white beans' they sometimes sell fresh at big supermarkets to be lima beans. Am I wrong there?
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Post by galina on Apr 6, 2013 2:46:32 GMT -5
...ph coccineus is only perennial in climates without frost ... I think perhaps it depends on the level of frost and the type of climate. We get regular -5°C overnight temps with dips to -10°C but winters tend to be on the dry side and the ground does not freeze. Runner beans perennialize here without a problem. Interesting observation. I have once only seen an overwintering ph coccineus. This plant was growing next to rhubarb and was mulched by rhubarb leaves. Here the soil is heavy clay and we are frequently under water over winter, not conditions they survive and the foliage goes as soon as it hits any frost here. Roots surviving to -10C that is impressive! |
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Post by raymondo on Apr 6, 2013 4:01:35 GMT -5
I think the humidity has a lot to do with it galina. I can leave potatoes in the ground all winter and dig as needed. If we had wet winters I don't think this would be possible and I don't think runner bean roots would survive either.
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Post by 12540dumont on Apr 6, 2013 13:17:21 GMT -5
Left to Right Bianca de Espana (Huge white bean) Grey speckled - Tarahumara Runner Brown Speckled - Painted Lady Purple & Black - Scarlet Runner Trifecta of White/Black/Purple with spots - Insuks Wang Kong Black - Might be Oxbow's Black Coat. (or not) I shelled all the runners separately...and then for some reason only known to himself, the fellow who was "helping" (and I use this term very loosely) last year, dumped them all together. The black coat is really hard to tell. Maybe Oxbow will post a photo of one. The only huge white beans I have ever seen in a store were limas, but that was here. I've never shopped in Belgium and more the pity. I did see these huge Bianca de Espana beans in Italy. As to Davida and the slippery slope, I did not push. I merely sent him a "few" beans in the mail. Fedzy and Bunkie will vouch for me...or maybe Joseph or Steev? Just a few seeds in the mail. Attachments:
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Post by robertb on Apr 6, 2013 13:21:56 GMT -5
I don't know US currency so I can't judge the size of the seeds. How big is that giant white one? I've seen gigandes of different sizes, from an inch long up to about an inch and a half. The others look more like normal runners, though the black ones are more square than usual.
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