Flat beans or runner beans?

[hortusbrambonii]

I've noticed that runner beans are grown quite a lot in english-speaking countries, and they seem to be quite popular here on the forum too. I was wondering if they take the place of what we call 'snijbonen' (literally 'cutting beans', sometimes called helda beans online) that are eaten traditionally in this part of Europe. The variety 'helda' itself is one I've been growing for years now, and a very good-producing and early pole type that's good for keeping in the freezer.

Not that we don't have runner beans at all over here, but when theyre grown it's more because of the flowers, and only second place for the pods that 'can be eaten like some kind of 'snijbonen'. The pods do look a bit the same and can be used in a similar way. (the main difference is that the seeds of most flat beans are small and boringly white) But although we do have fresh flat beans in the supermarket soometimes, I've never seen commercial runner beans for consumption anywhere.

So, do you traditionally grow helda-like flat beans in other parts of the world? Are they commercially available?
Are runner beans as a vegetable available commercially somewhere or only grown by gardeners?

[bertiefox]

Runner beans are difficult to grow in France, maybe also in Belgium, but it's the much drier summer weather and higher temperatures which create the problem. The only year I grew them successfully was last summer when it was much wetter and cooler than normal. Thompson and Morgan are marketing what they claim to be a French climbing bean and runner bean cross, with claims it has the best of both... I'm growing it this year so will let you know if it succeeds. In the UK runner beans used to produce massive crops of succulent beans which went on to the first frosts; here it has been very disappointing.

[robertb]

Runners grow like wildfire here in the UK, but the winter climate's too cold; they're grown as an annual when they're actually a perennial. I don't know what the idea climate would be. Perhaps you could tell us more about snijbonen, since it's not a name I've come across before. What species are they, and what's their growth habit?

[robertb]

Judging by a quick search, they're probably French beans. Runner beans are similar, but they're a different species, the beans and pods are bigger, and coarser if they're not picked young. The growth is a lot stronger.

[galina]

Runner beans (ph coccineus) succeed better in colder and wetter conditions. They are somewhat similar to the type of French Beans you mention 'Helda' etc (ph vulgaris), but their pods are a little thicker, rougher skinned and their flavour is slightly different too.

They are about 30cm long (sometimes a bit shorter - and even longer for exhibition beans) and they are used as green beans in the UK, like Helda, most people in the UK do not use them for their seeds.

They are a bit tougher than French Beans. When we get a bad summer, cold and rainy, they do much better than the more warmth loving French Beans. They are also less affected by autumn winds, that kill French Beans on my plot. Runnerbeans tolerate the winds - as do my inter-species crosses - these are the last beans that can be harvested before frost.

[hortusbrambonii]

'Snijbonen' are just good old Phaseolus vulgaris, and are similar to what you call 'french beans' ('haricots verts' in actual french, we call them prinsessenbonen [princess beans] ) only a form of green beans with flatter and bigger pods, quite similar to runner beans, only with much smaller seeds in them generally. 'Helda' is a pole variety, but there surely are dwarf varieties too... The young pods traditionally are cut into small pieces (by a human or kitchen machine) before they are eaten.

Runner beans are generally grown more as an ornamental (the last variety I tried was quite hard to eat, so I get that), and I've never seen the pods somewhere as a vegetable.

I think the climate over here is more like England and the very North of France, with more wet and cool summers. Never had a problem with growing runner beans, but the Helda beans are growing quite well too (they're a very early and resistant pole bean variety) and they are the ones we eat here traditionally.

(Never realised before that vegetables like 'snijbonen' and corn salad are not that common in other places...)

What interspecies-crosses do you haven Galina? And what are their characteristics?

[galina]

Apr 4, 2013 13:09:09 GMT -5 hortusbrambonii said:

What interspecies-crosses do you haven Galina? And what are their characteristics?

Cross between ph coccineus and ph vulgaris - very unstable genetically generations after the accidental cross, now looking more like a vulgaris bean, but as tough as a coccineus. Mostly black seeds, last year I got a few that had smaller sized coccineus looking seeds, have also had white seeds in the past. Very unpredictable, but always produce a good flush of beans in October when the ph vulgaris have perished.

Occasionally you hear reports about a red flower appearing on ph vulgaris - and people get very excited about the apparent new flower colour - usually that signifies an F1 interspecies cross. These crosses are not that rare - I have seen them a couple of times here.

Usually very few pods and few, misshapen black seeds in the first filial generation. The F2 generation is getting far more fertile and F3 and onwards yields are much better and plants and pods are looking more like ph vulgaris.

[ferdzy]

Very interesting. I had no idea they could cross.

Someone sent me a few P. coccineus which we will try growing this year for the first time. I have not grown them before, although I have eaten them in England. I have to say I did not like the flavour at all.

The cold hardiness is not usually an issue here, although it can never hurt! The crossed beans sound very intriguing. Something else to put on the never-ending list!

[hortusbrambonii]

Interesting. Does that cross self-pollinate, cross-pollinate with itself or cross-polilnate with the parents?

What P. vulgaris variety is the parent in your version? Did they come from vulgaris or coccineus seeds?

(Right now I'm dreaming of a perennial 'helda X runner' bean useful for permaculture...)

[12540dumont]

www.botany.wisc.edu/courses/botany_940/.../Phaseolus.ppt
If you have power point, this shows some interesting bean history

As the resident beaniac, I will say that there is a Runner bean that will grow almost everywhere. Painted Lady and Scarlet Runner are a little fussier about where they grow.

There are even runner beans for Greece and Cypress, so just because you live somewhere hot and dry doesn't mean you have to give them up.

I have never been to a grocery store that sells runner beans in North America. However, I have seen them at "farmer's markets" in Italy, Spain and Mexico.

No farmer's market near me sells them. However, my CSA gets them every year. I only distribute them as dry beans, as that is easier for me. The major difference between Phaseolus Vulgaris and Phaseolus Coccineus is that the Coccineus is a perennial, especially in the wild.

Here I cage them against the wiley gopher who loves those big starchy roots.

The flowers and leaves are edible, but the beans must be soaked and then boiled. Never ever cooked in a crockpot, unless you're trying to make some one ill.

The main reasons that they are not grown commercially here is that they require quite a lot of vertical support. This makes them expensive to both plant and harvest compared to bush dry beans which can be planted and harvested without hardly a human hand touching them.

chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/runner-x-common-bean-crosses/ This guy claims to have crossed a runner with a common bean. Go bumblebees!

One of the main reasons that I do not offer runners through the forum is that they are even heavier that favas to ship.

Also I make no effort whatsoever to keep my coccineus from crossing.
Coccineus is meant to be outcrossing and I'm not going to stop them.

However, I do use them to keep my other beans from crossing. Over several years, I have only seen one coccineus/vulgaris cross.

I have coccineus from:
Turkey, India, Serbia, Albania, Lebanon, Iran, Italy, Hungary, the Netherlands, Belgium and China. I am doing a grow out (up?) of these this year. I have been unable to get runner beans from Latin America, with the exception of beans from the Tarajumara. I also have searched endlessly for the runner bean : Vallepietra from Italy.

Some runners are daylight sensitive. To get the best runners where you are, plant them the first year and baby them. The second and third years the beans will be come more acclimatized to your location.

Pictured is Insuks Wang Kong. This one will grow where it's hot and dry. Sandhill sells it.

P.S. A beaniac is someone who has a love of beans in all their diverse forms! It's almost like Iris Virus...a disease that has you purchasing more iris rhizomes, even though you have no more room for them. It's a slippery slope.

Attachments:

[blueadzuki]

Isn't the bean they use for Gigantes in Greece a runner. The dried ones I saw at the supermarket sure looked like it could be.

[billw]

Apr 4, 2013 15:10:39 GMT -5 12540dumont said:

The flowers and leaves are edible, but the beans must be soaked and then boiled. Never ever cooked in a crockpot, unless you're trying to make some one ill.

Can you expound on that? We use our runners young like green beans and mature like any other dry bean, so I must be missing something.

[12540dumont]

Sorry, the beans can be eaten as green beans, but ONCE they are DRY they must be soaked and boiled.

Arghh...sorry about that.

[hortusbrambonii]

Holly, your first link doesn't work over here due to shortened /.../ part in the middle.

Now that's one advantage of helda flat french beans over runner beans, the seeds are much smaller and as such much easier to send around the world...

(They're okay as a drying bean, not special)

I actually do have runner beans for next year, an unnamed variety from a seed-swap day with purple/black speckled seeds, I suppose something like 'scarlet runner', which is a common variety. I gather that the indicvidual varieties are not that stable anyway as regular beans, since P. coccineus is reputed to be a self-incompatible cross-pollinating outbreeder while P. phaseolus is mostly self-pollinating... Or am I wrong here?

Aren't those giant white beans lima beans (P. lunatus).

[Walk]

It sounds like dry runner beans are like dry kidney beans in terms of being toxic if raw or undercooked? Here's a link to an article about the bean problem www.foodreference.com/html/artredkidneybeanpoisoning.html .