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Post by nicollas on Nov 24, 2017 11:08:06 GMT -5
Thanks  Having hard times to grow P. polystachios properly so have not tried hand pollinations yet  Beware Srdjan, half the accessions i got from genebanks were in fact Amphicarpaea bracteata ! |
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Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Nov 25, 2017 6:55:24 GMT -5
Thank you. It is nice to be here. There are many interesting topics being discussed here. Thanks Having hard times to grow P. polystachios properly so have not tried hand pollinations yet Beware Srdjan, half the accessions i got from genebanks were in fact Amphicarpaea bracteata! Nicollas, What seams to be the problem with P. polystachios? Do you know any source of mixed genetics runner beans? A. bracteata wouldn't be a bad thing at all Do they grow for you? Best, Srdjan |
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 28, 2017 0:21:54 GMT -5
Nice to have another runner bean grower on the forum!
I googled seed companies in Estonia and came up with Seemnemailm. I don't know anything about them, good or bad, but they have a runner bean mix and another white-seeded variety. If they're growing their own seed for the mix, which seems possible, the genetics should be pretty mixed up. Even if they aren't, if you grow them together and get mature seeds, some of them should be crossed.
I've found bulk runner beans in Italian or other specialty grocery stores. They're often called buffalo beans or something like that, and are usually white. Sometimes white runner beans are also sold for eating as butter beans. Some butter beans are lima beans, though, so you'd have to grow them out or try to figure them out by seed shape.
If you're having trouble getting mature seeds from plants grown in your garden, you might want to try to grow them indoors under artificial lights. I've had quite a bit of success with this, just growing them under shop lights in my basement. The flowers need to be triggered (moving the stigma around by pulling gently on the wings) for the pods to set. If you learn to trigger the flowers, it's relatively easy to do manual fertile x fertile crosses, so you could get some F2 seeds in two generations.
If you want to make crosses with P. polystachios, growing the plants indoors and learning to make P. coccineus x P. coccineus crosses first might be a good idea. That's been my approach when attempting interspecific P. vulgaris, P. coccineus, and P. acutifolius crosses.
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Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Nov 28, 2017 3:29:54 GMT -5
Nice to have another runner bean grower on the forum! I googled seed companies in Estonia and came up with Seemnemailm. I don't know anything about them, good or bad, but they have a runner bean mix and another white-seeded variety. If they're growing their own seed for the mix, which seems possible, the genetics should be pretty mixed up. Even if they aren't, if you grow them together and get mature seeds, some of them should be crossed. I've found bulk runner beans in Italian or other specialty grocery stores. They're often called buffalo beans or something like that, and are usually white. Sometimes white runner beans are also sold for eating as butter beans. Some butter beans are lima beans, though, so you'd have to grow them out or try to figure them out by seed shape. If you're having trouble getting mature seeds from plants grown in your garden, you might want to try to grow them indoors under artificial lights. I've had quite a bit of success with this, just growing them under shop lights in my basement. The flowers need to be triggered (moving the stigma around by pulling gently on the wings) for the pods to set. If you learn to trigger the flowers, it's relatively easy to do manual fertile x fertile crosses, so you could get some F2 seeds in two generations. If you want to make crosses with P. polystachios, growing the plants indoors and learning to make P. coccineus x P. coccineus crosses first might be a good idea. That's been my approach when attempting interspecific P. vulgaris, P. coccineus, and P. acutifolius crosses. Thanks. I'm trying to grow them...not much success atm. I already bought from Seemnemailm. If you look through their offer, it is an online retail shop. Non of offered seeds are grown by them, all mass produced by international seed companies. Getting any runners is not an issue, actually 500 g of food grade beans cost same as 20 seed pack. I already tried with food beans but climate in south and north of Europe are very different. The problem is that they are all cultivars with relatively narrow genetics. I'm hoping to find some backyard grower (or wannabe breeder) with seeds from recent crosses. It's very, very hard to find "non-pure" seeds. I'm actually already setting for indoor growing and I'm comfortable with making Phaseolus crosses. My biggest problem is time to do all those crosses. Growing P. polystachios might be another but I can't say atm. How successful are your crosses with P. acutifolius? Best, Srdjan |
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Post by reed on Nov 28, 2017 5:29:07 GMT -5
I planted P. polystachios by my garden gate a couple seasons ago and they did pretty good. Old plants lived through winter and also new volunteers came up. Have to be really careful collecting seeds as the pods shatter easily. I just figure on letting nature take it's course as far as any crossing goes.
Is P. coccineus the best shot at getting a natural cross by bees?
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Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Nov 28, 2017 8:15:51 GMT -5
Is P. coccineus the best shot at getting a natural cross by bees? I would say that P. lunatus might be better choice. However, I don't know. I opted for runners due to being edible (both pods and seeds) and, in addition, very decorative. I'm planing to try and cross it with P. vulgaris as well (especially, if I can get my hands on popping beans). |
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Post by imgrimmer on Nov 28, 2017 14:08:06 GMT -5
Hi Srdjan nice to see you here |
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Nov 28, 2017 22:51:47 GMT -5
I'm actually already setting for indoor growing and I'm comfortable with making Phaseolus crosses. My biggest problem is time to do all those crosses. Growing P. polystachios might be another but I can't say atm. How successful are your crosses with P. acutifolius? Oh, that's awesome! So glad to meet someone else who's making bean crosses! Are you doing full emasculations or fertile x fertile crosses? It does take quite a bit of time. I find that if I'm doing any more that about 7 crosses in an evening, it's just too much. The record keeping takes a lot of time, too. I haven't had any success with the P. acutifolius crosses yet. My current strategy is to work on several different projects, trying to transfer various traits from common beans to runner beans, while having a tepary plant or two growing at the same time. Whenever I have extra flowers on a plant from a common / runner project, I attempt some crosses with a tepary. I'm hoping that I'll get lucky someday and come across a plant from a complex common / runner cross that can grow a mature seed from a tepary cross without having to resort to embryo rescue. |
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Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Nov 29, 2017 1:53:35 GMT -5
Hi Srdjan nice to see you here Thank you. Are you doing full emasculations or fertile x fertile crosses? It does take quite a bit of time. I find that if I'm doing any more that about 7 crosses in an evening, it's just too much. The record keeping takes a lot of time, too. I'm hoping that I'll get lucky someday and come across a plant from a complex common / runner cross that can grow a mature seed from a tepary cross without having to resort to embryo rescue. If I have time, I go for full emasculation. However, to be honest in most of cases I go for "fast&dirty method". I rip away most of anthers and transfer pollen from another plant (sometimes I don't get all anthers, sometimes I'm late or they release pollen during process...so what). Advantage is faster procedure and potential benefit of mixed pollen, disadvantage is very unreliable results. I keep record only for fully emasculated flowers, the rest go into bulk seed for outdoor planting and I let nature do the work. If there is something beneficial in new combination it should spread in population, if not I don't waste much time. I try to match recessive mother vs dominant father for some easy to score property. E.g. bush vs vine, white vs colored flowers. It makes easy to score F1s. The earlier it is possible to score markers the better, unfortunately for most species I work with, I have very limited choice. Embryo rescue is surprisingly easy (at least for many people) when done in non-dormant seeds. It does require a bit effort to set things up but it can be done relatively easy and successful. You need kitchen dishes, small jars with tight lid (baby food), supplies from "health shops", hormones can be found online or better supplied flower shops, few tools (small forceps and scalpel/knife), grow space with light. The most complicated is "sterile" station but flow hood can be made at home relatively easy Homemade Flow Hood. |
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Post by walt on Nov 29, 2017 14:37:58 GMT -5
Embryo rescue can be worth the trouble.
MS medium is available online at reasonable price. I get it in pre-measured bags. A bag is good for 1 liter of water.
Some embryos, i.e. embryos from some species crosses require hormones of vitamins. Some do as well on sugar and MS medium.
I have never done it without a pressure cooker to sterilize the jars, medium, and tools. I read that some people just boil, but they often get poor results. Some do OK. Water boils at a lower temperature at high altitudes, that may be the difference. Or maybe it is luck, or attention to details. Luck and attention to details seem to go together in many things.
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Post by Al on Nov 1, 2019 12:26:26 GMT -5
An old thread I know but I thought this might be of interest. Runner beans always seem to set well for me in the U.K. possibly it is just that temperature & humidity is to their liking.
I have grown The Czar for years replanting saved seed, partly to eat the green pods but mainly for the superb white beans which dry well & cook up like a butter bean or Greek gigantes. I grow The Czar up the side of a wigwam with a black seeded climbing French beans on the other side, when shelling my lovely creamy white runner beans I opened a pod to find it contained huge beans black as The Ace of Spades & almost fell off my stool. I assume the black seeded French beans must have pollinated a Czar flower resulting in a black seeded Czar variant, I think i recall a red flowered plant among the white Czar flowers & wonder if this was the black fella. Wondering what to expect if i replant a row of these black seeds, is it likely to throw up a mix of different traits? I know that Phaseolus coccineus & P. vulgaris do cross & that black seeded crosses such as 'Moonlight' are available commercially. I just have to decide if I want to go over to The Dark side.
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Post by triffid on Feb 3, 2020 16:08:30 GMT -5
I had no idea 'Moonlight' had black seeds - always assumed white flowers = white seeds - very interesting, I'm now incentivized to grow these this season.
It's probably more likely that a black-seeded runner bean, facilitated by a neighbourhood bee, is the father of the black Czar - but I hope for an interspecies cross. Do keep us posted on the F2.
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