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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 28, 2014 21:02:50 GMT -5
This year I began the initial stages of a mass cross of runnerbeans with the goal of replicating Joseph's landrace technique that he has had so much success adapting marginal crops to his climate. I've mentioned this project before in this thread , I was pleased by stillandrew 's mention of how easily runnerbeans outcross for them. A mix of multiple varieties in a large planting should result in a lot of interesting recombinations. The Problem Runnerbeans are problematic here in the Northeast. The plants grow well, usually becoming very large and beautiful. They flower prolifically and are often used as an ornamental for this reason. But they set very few pods and the yield of seed is quite low considering the size of the plants and the number of flowers. Well over 90% of the flowers abort without ever creating a pod. It is unclear if the flowers themselves are aborting due to temperature, or if there is some sort of pollen viability, incompatibility issue happening due to temperature. My hope is that by acquiring as much different runnerbean germplasm as possible and mass crossing them together I will be able to overcome this temperature related seed-set issue and create a higher yielding runnerbean that likes growing in my climate and will set seed under our normal summer conditions. I started the project this year on a small scale and simply grew a few different types from my collection and from a recent seed swap together. I believe I had a couple strains of "scarlet runner",Blackcoat, Painted Lady, and a non-diverse line of Insuk's Wang Kong. Since then I've received some very interesting seed from other gardeners, especially the Tarahumara runner from Holly which is unlike any runner I've ever seen. I'm throwing them all in a jar to represent the expanded 2014 project. If anyone has any runnerbeans they'd like to send my way I'd appreciate it. Especially interested in "crossed up" material. Varieties that will be included in 2014; Scarlet Runner (various lines), Blackcoat, Painted Lady, Tarahumara, Sean's white, Bianco Di Spagna, Tocumares Chocolate (plus some crossed up Tocumares mixes),Grammy Tilly's, Sunset Runner, and Insuk's Wang Kong.  |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 28, 2014 21:44:59 GMT -5
Varieties that will be included in 2014; Scarlet Runner (various lines), Blackcoat, Painted Lady, Tarahumara, Sean's white, Bianco Di Spagna, Tocumares Chocolate (plus some crossed up Tocumares mixes),Grammy Tilly's, Sunset Runner, and Insuk's Wang Kong. I'm sending some Jack in the Beanstalk Giant White to add to the mix. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Feb 28, 2014 22:13:00 GMT -5
www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?product=X9407Maybe you want to add Ijevan #1 too. I imagine an Armenian Runner will probably be well adapted to here. I don't have any spare seed at the moment, but I think there's still some in the Seed Zoo (a href="http://"]http://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?product=X9407[/a])
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 28, 2014 23:04:46 GMT -5
It looks interesting, but $0.62/seed is too rich for me. I'll just have to live without it. It makes me wonder though about the runnerbean diversity of the Near East and Central Asia. I remember that picture of the Turkish Beans. Wonder what kind of runnerbeans they have in Turkey? |
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Post by blueadzuki on Feb 28, 2014 23:19:07 GMT -5
Perfectly logical. I'm probably going to put what seed I do have in the ground this season if I can find room. Assuming any comes up and makes anything), I'll see what I can do about sending you some of mine then (and if it doesn't then you'll at least know that it probably wouldn't have worked for you anyway.
I can only guess about Near East runner diversity. There was another Runner in the Seed Zoo once (which sold out before I got a chance to order any) from the same source. That one had a very different seed coat, both from the one I posted and, come to think of it from any of the ones in your pic. I seem to recall Ijevan #2 appeared to be a cream to white bean with black streaks. The notes in the zoo said beans are BIG in the near east, so those two are probably FAR from the only strains out there.
I would imagine that, potentially any color found in the common bean could theoretically show up in a runner. They seem to share similar seed palettes (the same way rice beans and adzukis do, or cowpeas and Bambarra Groundnuts)
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Post by steev on Mar 1, 2014 3:31:43 GMT -5
Having planted runners from Holly last year, I've no idea yet whether any have over-wintered, but I got 6 seeds (from 3 pods), which I will re-plant. In the event of any promising result, you'll be among the first to know.
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Post by MikeH on Mar 1, 2014 4:24:36 GMT -5
It looks interesting, but $0.62/seed is too rich for me. I'll just have to live without it. It makes me wonder though about the runnerbean diversity of the Near East and Central Asia. I remember that picture of the Turkish Beans. Wonder what kind of runnerbeans they have in Turkey? We'll be at Richters this morning. I'll pick some up and send them along. I owe you some postage. |
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Post by robertb on Mar 1, 2014 15:39:55 GMT -5
I'm doing much the same, but with the emphasis on black varieties, at least at the moment. We'll see where we end up!
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Post by oxbowfarm on Mar 1, 2014 18:24:53 GMT -5
How many different black varieties do you have available there in the UK robertb ? Here there are only about three, and they are only available through Seed Savers Exchange. |
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Post by 12540dumont on Mar 1, 2014 21:14:39 GMT -5
So, why don't runners always set seeds? Many are day sensitive....much like onions.
1. Domestication and Dissemination Pathways of Common Bean
Over a time period of at least 7000 years, the common bean (Phaseolus vulgaris L.) has evolved from wild growing into a major leguminous crop. Before domestication, wild P. vulgaris had already diverged into two major gene pools, each with a proper geographical distribution. Domestication of wild common beans occurred independently in Mesoamerica and Andean South America and gave rise to two major gene pools also within the cultivated forms. Evidence supporting common bean
Diversity organization into two major domesticated gene pools came from studies made on morphological, agronomical, and adaptation traits [3-5], phaseolin type , isozymes , and molecular markers . Cultivars from Mesoamerica usually are small- or medium-seeded (<25 g or 25–40 g/100 seed weight, respectively) and have S phaseolin type. The South American counterparts have larger seeds (>40 g/100 seed weight) with T, C, H, and A phaseolin patterns [4,6]. Some limited germplasm exchange took place between the two gene pools in pre-Columbian age, while much more extensive seed flow occurred after the 1500s. Despite their partial reproductive isolation, the two gene pools still belong to the same biological species. Although viable and fertile progeny can be obtained and gene transfer could be attempted, still today breeding programs have only partially comprised systematic combinations of a wide range of genotypes from each gene pool
The discovery of the Americas triggered a rapid exchange of crops between the Old and New World. The pathways of beans dissemination in Europe is still unclear and currently under discussion, since the initial input of common bean in Europe is largely unrecorded. It is likely that sailors and traders brought the nicely colored and easily transportable bean seeds already from the first trips towards the Americas in the 16th and 17th centuries. The initial common bean accessions were introduced probably in Europe from Mesoamerica, since Columbus arrived in Central America in 1492 and Cortes reached Mexico in 1518, while Pizarro, exploring Peru in 1528, gave the chance to introduce common bean from the Andes. The first European explorers certainly devoted great interest towards this species. For example, Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo, who explored Panama and Nicaragua in 1530, included in its travel reports detailed information on common bean cultivation techniques used by the American natives .
There are strong evidences that common bean reached France already in 1508, probably without value for human consumption at that time. The first description of common bean in European herbals was done by Fuchs (1542–1543), who reported that the common bean had climbing habit, white or red flowers and red, white, yellow, skin-colored or liver-colored seeds with or without spots. However, it cannot be excluded that Fuchs reported a combination of traits belonging to both P. vulgaris and Phaseolus coccineus L. species. Further descriptions were done by Roesslin in 1550, by Oellinger in 1553 and by Dodonaeus in 1554 . Fuchs and Dodonaeus only referred information about the climbing habit of the bean plant. A punctual selection of old manuscripts (1493–1774) mentioning P. vulgaris or its synonyms was recently reported by Krell and Hammer. Since the Mesoamerican biotypes are not very frequent in Europe, McClean supposed that the germplasm dispersed into Europe was predominantly of Andean origin. However, after the introduction, a natural selection took place within bean germplasm for tolerance to long days, disease and pest resistance, stress tolerance and ability to survive, combined with a man-drive selection for plant habit, seed color, seed pattern type and also disease and pest resistance.
The above came to me from Dr Lucia Lioi's paper on Italian Common Bean Landraces.
So yes, you are on target, Keep selecting. (I have many Coccineus in my collection that I'm not ready to disseminate yet. I think you will benefit if I plant them here, get seeds, and send them on.) However, knowing it's you, when I plant this year, I will send you a few seeds from each. It's hard to be patient when you are onto a project. For me the beauty of these is that if I can keep them growing, I will have perennial beans! Trellis once, plant once and beans every year. Many of the beans you already have are perennial here. Folks from your coast have told me that they dig up the roots and overwinter them in their basements. (Of course, I have no basement). It will be interesting to see what the drought has done to my roots. I love beans...don't you? From roots they are earlier and more productive.
This is what I'm planting this year:
ID country of origin
175858 Turkey White
183412 India Red/Brown
183464 India Red
358088 Former Serbia and Montenegro White
358091 Former Serbia and Montenegro (Probistipski) White
358092 Former Serbia and Montenegro (Probistipski) White
361351 India Brown & Pink Speckled
361451 India Brown & Pink Speckled & Plain Brown
361480 India
361509 India
361511 India
361551 India
361553 India
361578 India brown & Pink Speckled
379426 Former Serbia and Montenegro brown & Pink Speckled and plain brow & Plain Pink
433927 United States (Maui) Black
661692 Hungary
I have no intention of keeping these beans from cross pollinating. When I send them out, don't expect a lot of seed, I can at most send you 5, if you want them this year. As I received VERY few of each of these beans. So, what do you think?
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Post by oxbowfarm on Mar 1, 2014 21:52:52 GMT -5
Holly, I'll take what you can spare, but I am already pleased with what I have and what I have headed my way. I don't have any expectation that I'll acquire the entire spectrum of runnerbean diversity.
I've seen daylength mentioned before, but usually a plant daylength/photoperiod issue results in no flowering at all or delayed flowering. My runnerbeans flower like gangbusters, they just abort most of the flowers without setting seed. It just seems more like a pollen deactivation or incompatibility issue.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 1, 2014 22:28:32 GMT -5
My runnerbeans flower like gangbusters, they just abort most of the flowers without setting seed. I experience something similar with Fava beans... They flower beautifully all summer long without setting fruit. I get a little bit of fruit set first thing in the spring. My favas grow knee high, not like the shoulder high shrubbery in New Zealand. |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Mar 2, 2014 7:59:13 GMT -5
Here's and interesting paper, they analyzed the genetic diversity of European runnerbeans as compared to wild and domesticated Central American runnerbeans. Indicates a very understandable genetic bottleneck due to the transfer to Europe, and lack of genetic validity to subspecies designations like bicolor or albiflorus. It also seems to generally indicate that European runnerbeans have been selected for larger seed size, longer pod length, and differing flowering times (based on lattitude) compared to beans from the Central American highlands. |
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Post by robertb on Mar 2, 2014 12:58:37 GMT -5
How many different black varieties do you have available there in the UK robertb ? Here there are only about three, and they are only available through Seed Savers Exchange. So far I've been able to get hold of Mrs Cannell's Black, Black Magic, Aeron Purple Star (a new one from an amateur grower over here, so it probably hasn't reached the States), and Black Pod. I've also got a few seeds of Stiense, which I know nothing about, but the seeds look very much like Black Pod, so it may well turn out to be another black one. There's always a shortage of interesting runner bean varieties, as they're promiscuous outbreeders, and varieties have probably been hybridised out of existence. Rather than trying to keep varieties 'pure', I'm developing my own mixes of some of these, and trying to develop strains which suit my specific conditions. |
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Post by robertb on Mar 2, 2014 13:05:48 GMT -5
Could lack of pollination be the reason they don't always set seed? Runners are mainly pollinated by bumblebees, as honeybees can't reach the nectar. Sometimes the flowers are bitten through at the back, which enables the honeybees (which don't do the biting) to reach it, but of course doesn't lead to pollination. So what's on your runners? The same question could be asked about broad beans. Again, it's mainly bumbles which do the business, as honeybees are only attracted to very large stands. I sometimes get poor pollination, but I'm not really sure of the reason at the moment.
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