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Post by templeton on Nov 4, 2015 0:00:23 GMT -5
Steve, great photos, thanks so much for sharing. The Golden Sweet fibre is a bit subtle - hard to see. The TS is great, tho.
I went outside this morning harvesting/scoring my purple snows and purple snaps - both have considerable fibre, sad to report. The pod snap and peel test revealed lots of fibre in the purple snow line. But taste tests on the purple snow (interim name 'Heather') at my growout garden indicated that the fibre is relatively late to develop. While I was disappointed in relation to my Yellow Snow (interim name 'Jonis Taxi') which is growing in the adjacent row and seems to be fully fibre free, my grower friend/host thought Heather was quite edible. By the way, I think my Joni's is superior to Golden Podded ex Diggers seeds (= Golden Sweet according to a correspondent of mine).
I'll add some notes on Raymondo's thread 'ppvv Pea Lines' about the breeding of the Joni's line.
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Post by raymondo on Nov 4, 2015 3:23:48 GMT -5
steve1, in the pics of the stained pods, is Golden Sweet the same as Golden Podded from Diggers? And is Sugar Snap the climbing or bush version? I ask because one id PPvv and the ppVV so they would be useful as testers for ppvv lines.
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Post by steve1 on Nov 4, 2015 5:51:09 GMT -5
raymondo - yes sorry, the one I have labelled Golden Sweet, is sourced from Diggers and was sold as Golden podded. The Sugar Snap is the intermediate version 1.5 meters tall and stringy. I made a post earlier today on the ppvv list thread suggesting that you can use these as testers and the F1 pods would give you parchment status. If you are using your own lines of these, check when you cross them together the F1 comes out as fully parchmented. It just confirms that you have one recessive parchment gene in each variety. And also thank you for continually adding links for the references. Time is short at the moment. templeton - yes the Golden podded/sweet staining is subtle. I'm hoping it'll be improved on dry pods, but it may not be. Like the Pur colour gene it appears parchment genes are variable in the amount of expression and also time to development. Using test crosses and analysing the F1 pods may actually be easier. Staining purple pods ends up in a sea of red, and if you are trying to pick that subtle stain - no hope. I'm guessing the Yellow Taxi snow line likely only has one recessive parchment gene, which as you can see with the Golden podded is well enough. That stained pod was 4 weeks old and at full maturity - very little parchment and not discernible to tasters I would say. Were there any fibreless purple snows? Has anyone fiddled with refractometers for analysing sugar content in peas?
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Post by templeton on Nov 4, 2015 7:10:10 GMT -5
steve1, I've just checked my records of my original crosses from 2011. I crossed Golden Podded with a purple flowered large podded snow that came up in batch of home-collected Melting Mammoth - I suspect it was Yakumo since it was the only other large podded snow I'd grown, and I suspect a seed got misplaced or misplanted (MM is white flowered). Pity I was not quite so dilligent at record keeping then. (Interestingly, I've noticed quite different seed in different lots of Yakumo from different sellers, either the original was heterozygous for seed coat, and regrowers have selected differently, or some crossing or substitution has taken place somewhere). It's been a while since I've grown Golden Podded, but I recall and my records show it as having quite a bit of fibre from my growouts. My guess, unconfirmed, is that I've bred a ppvvgpgp line. That's why I'm so interested in staining tests for fibre - would be nice to be a bit more precise about v and p, save a bit of time in getting a truely low fibre snow if I could pick the parents. I'm up to F7 or F8, so should be homozygous at most loci. Luckily, I've got a seed increase crop in at another garden which i think s F6 or F7 and if I've got time in the next week, I'll go and do a pod peel test - they should be ready. I was trying to get some crosses to Oregon Giant, but the heatwave 5-7 October put paid to that. I've got multiple lines of proto purple snows from diverse snow parents, including dwarfs and fungal resistant lines, and not enough room or time to plant them all and assess them. And no, haven't fiddled with refractometers. The chew test for fibre also gives some insights to sweetness, and also some of the anthocyanin tangs and chalkiness flavours and mouthfeel. I've done some crosses of my yellow snow to my large podded purple halfsnow, and the F2s are just beginning to flower, I've got in 80 F2s I think, so in a few weeks might be able to have a look at ratios and fibre comparisons. So many interesting projects... ...surprised galina hasn't popped in...  T
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Post by templeton on Nov 4, 2015 18:55:44 GMT -5
Are you going to take out breeder's rights on your purple pea in the European Union? Sorry, ray, missed your post. Breeders rights? Not for the likes of us, I reckon. No, I just like the descriptions and drawings, and testing procedures. Would be useful to make up a scoring sheet or at least keep my notes consistent. It can be hard to know sometimes what to record. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 4, 2015 21:53:07 GMT -5
Would be useful to make up a scoring sheet or at least keep my notes consistent. It can be hard to know sometimes what to record. I really enjoy scoring grids... I work down the row scoring each plant, which are numbered along the row, and each gets a one line entry in a notebook with scores for the various traits in columns down the page.... I'll score things like vigor, color, number of fruits per node, etc.... Sucks when my vocabulary is not consistent between scoring sessions. For example, on the promiscuously pollinated tomato project I originally used "loose" and "open" as synonyms. Today I use them to describe two different traits of a flower. Here's what a score card for the [Hillbilly X Jagodka] F2 clade looked like... The data points that are circled were traits that I really liked, or really disliked. #9 only missed on 1 of the 7 traits that were scored. A fantastic find... Plants with an arrow were kept for seed. The rest were not. Sometimes it only takes one highly desirable trait for me to save something to grow next year. A whole string of average traits usually gets a plant culled.  |
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Post by steev on Nov 4, 2015 22:10:54 GMT -5
So well organized! Even when I keep good records, the notes get lost in the piles; I need a garage, so I'd have space for more separate piles. I think I may have not so much of stacks, as a midden.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 4, 2015 22:19:25 GMT -5
Most of my notes end up as a middens pile too!
In the tomato scorecard, there were 18 plants, but only 17 made it onto the original score card... It wasn't until about the 4th scoring that I noticed the discrepancy! By then it was way too late to be correcting the data, so #7, which was really two plants, got split into two data entries way late in the season.
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Post by steve1 on Nov 4, 2015 23:15:03 GMT -5
For those interested Yakumo with peeled endocarp stained. My thought is PPVV. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94877168/Yakumostained.jpgAnd interestingly I found some extra Shiras snows that were at mature seed stage tucked away on a bench - and they had some fiber too. None at all from my tests at the normal snow stage. More delayed parchment formation? I'm guessing that must be controlled by gene or genes unspecified. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94877168/Shiras.jpgHave done a couple of test crosses - so will see what falls out in the F1. I tend to make notes in a notebook and transfer them to excel later. Sprinklers are the arch enemy of computers! Cheers |
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Post by templeton on Nov 5, 2015 5:29:30 GMT -5
Yuk, why did i start with Yakumo? No subtlety in THATstaining! Its sure looking like delayed fibre formation might be in play...do you need publications? Did some peel tests today, and it looks like my purple 'snow' develops fibre as pods develop. Got another independent taste test, and not considered undesirable by the taster. Wondering if either p or v also delays fibre production? Or is there another genetic control? t |
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Post by templeton on Nov 5, 2015 5:35:16 GMT -5
So well organized! Even when I keep good records, the notes get lost in the piles; I need a garage, so I'd have space for more separate piles. I think I may have not so much of stacks, as a midden. I bought a nice leatherbound notebook so i wouldn't lose it. And only the one, so i wouldn't get records spread over multiple books, a constant problem in my work. |
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Post by steve1 on Nov 5, 2015 12:01:00 GMT -5
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Post by steve1 on Nov 11, 2015 22:59:29 GMT -5
Has anyone found any references to delayed parchment formation? I've had a bit of a look and come up with nothing...
Cheers
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Post by galina on Mar 22, 2017 8:44:21 GMT -5
Hi Templeton, from what I've read the Pur purple gene behaves a bit differently. Lamprecht - who did extensive work on peas (mostly in German) identified three degrees of pod colouration related to multiple alleles at the pur locus. Pur with full colouration, pur a and pur b with progressively less colouration and pur with no colouration. My guess is you've had a spontaneous mutation at this locus. Let me know if you want the reference. Cheers Steve I have tried to find it online and there does not seem to be a source. Anybody have an url for the Lamprecht research please? Or a summary either in German or English. Would appreciate being able to read it. Have come to this thread somewhat belatedly (sorry) but it gave me a pretty good 'heads-up' regarding the problems with my red podded mangetout (snow) pea project. Especially the photo showing Pur, pur a, pur b and pur you posted steve1 . steve1 , unfortunately I can't see your google drop box pictures of the fibre stains you did. Pity, they may of course have long been removed. |
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Post by toad on Mar 22, 2017 15:17:09 GMT -5
Hi Templeton, from what I've read the Pur purple gene behaves a bit differently. Lamprecht - who did extensive work on peas (mostly in German) identified three degrees of pod colouration related to multiple alleles at the pur locus. Pur with full colouration, pur a and pur b with progressively less colouration and pur with no colouration. My guess is you've had a spontaneous mutation at this locus. Let me know if you want the reference. Cheers Steve I have tried to find it online and there does not seem to be a source. Anybody have an url for the Lamprecht research please? Or a summary either in German or English. Would appreciate being able to read it. Have come to this thread somewhat belatedly (sorry) but it gave me a pretty good 'heads-up' regarding the problems with my red podded mangetout (snow) pea project. Especially the photo showing Pur, pur a, pur b and pur you posted steve1 . steve1 , unfortunately I can't see your google drop box pictures of the fibre stains you did. Pity, they may of course have long been removed. Here you can buy (expensive) the article "Der Züchter, June 1938, Volume 10, Issue 6, pp 150–157 Über Hülseneigenschaften bei Pisum, ihre Vererbung und ihr züchterischer Wert link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01812346I can't find it for free anywhere but lot of other articles in german or swedish. He worked most of his life in Sweden, less than an hour drive from my home. |
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