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Post by galina on May 24, 2017 9:32:22 GMT -5
Merci Beaucoup mon ami. Much appreciated  |
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Post by toad on May 30, 2017 14:20:07 GMT -5
I noticed this, on the extreme mutation rate in some purple podded strains:
"Das Gen Pur zeigt in gewissem Material eine
aul3erordentlich hohe Mutationsfrequenz fiber
die Allelen pura und purb nach pur. Die Mu-
tationen treten nicht somatisch an Zweigen
oder Hfilsen auf, sondern von Generation zu
Generation. In einer yon mir besonders dies-
beziiglich studierten Linie betrug die Mutations-
rate von Pur-Pflanzen etwa 20 %, die yon pura-
und purb-Individuen je etwa 40%; alles in der
Richtung nach pur, wobei die Mutation nicht
stets beim n~chsten Allel der Serie stehen blieb,
sondern zu gewissem (geringerem) Teil weiter
ging."
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Post by galina on May 31, 2017 6:21:23 GMT -5
toad. Yes it is a problem that we have to live with. What we don't know is what favours or hinders this large mutation rate. I saved seeds from a strain of solid purple last year and shared with others. Just had a query regarding colours as one recipient noticed some green in the pods and wondered whether this was correct. Does growing in different locations accelerate mutation? Or different growing conditions, more extreme drought/wet, different ph values in rain or tap water?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 31, 2017 9:37:37 GMT -5
toad. Yes it is a problem that we have to live with. What we don't know is what favours or hinders this large mutation rate. I saved seeds from a strain of solid purple last year and shared with others. Just had a query regarding colours as one recipient noticed some green in the pods and wondered whether this was correct. Does growing in different locations accelerate mutation? Or different growing conditions, more extreme drought/wet, different ph values in rain or tap water? Good question Galina. Im not sure exactly but but i would suspect as much. Yes i think it may have to do with epigenetics and some sort of epistatic gene that is somewhat tied to certain growing consitions. So yes i would not be surprised if this happens more when climate conditions radically change from one year to the next or when sharing seed with someone else under different conditions. The purple alleles may be transposable and not static in nature as well and so they may be moving around as well. Curious phenomenon though. Reminds me a bit of the purple seeded gene im working with in Purple Passion. Last year i think i had some F1 seeds so im excited if i get any F2 seed this year. But some of those are pure purple and some are part purple and part green or yellow depending on cotelydon color underneath so its not always complete either. Maybe the same epistatic gene is responsible. By crossing in a different version of the b gene different behavior may result. I suspect the pink flowered gene will cause a red podded pea to be a peach colored pea. Not sure if it would be more stable. |
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Post by steve1 on Jun 28, 2017 22:25:16 GMT -5
keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) (and galina), here is an image of a Shiras pea (mature) which I think explains the leathery-ness you experienced. It was grown in a greenhouse in late spring (up to 35'C). Its much more parchment than I'd expect, though it is a snow ppVV as I demonstrated via dry pod phenotype and through crossing to my line of sugar snap which is also ppVV. I've also attached an image of a golden snap line that is sectioned (superior to inferior), stained (Phloroglucinol/HCL) and placed under a microscope slide. The feint pink lines running diagonally in the top part of the pod are the parchment fibres. Via taste test these pods were fiberless. www.dropbox.com/s/03alluqvrzwdonf/Shiras.jpg?dl=0www.dropbox.com/s/x26fvxc12seslea/GoldenSnapMicroscope.JPG?dl=0
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Post by templeton on Jul 17, 2017 1:07:02 GMT -5
I've had a couple of tastes of Shiraz - not very impressed. Is that really the best T&M, professional seedsmen can actually do? If i recall they claim to have spent a decade developing it - I was most depressed when they released it thinking my toil was wasted. How come a clueless breeder like me with little knowledge and less experience can produce a far superior purple pea? and not just dumb luck, i've got three good lines.
T
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Post by galina on Jul 25, 2017 9:29:12 GMT -5
You are so correct Templeton. Alan Kapuler's Sugar Magnolia is also superior in taste.
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Post by steve1 on Dec 19, 2017 6:36:24 GMT -5
@templton and galina, ten years is pretty standard for a commercial operation, though there are now new fast phenotyping facilities that can push six generations a year. My guess is it Shiras was a result of where it was bred at least from the parchment perspective - if you breed and select something in a cold environment and then transport it somewhere where it hits 35-40'C in spring without good field trials you have no idea how it will react. The taste I thought was just ok in late winter, but not on the spectrum of Sugar Snap which is what I tend to use as a taste reference. |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Dec 19, 2017 7:12:53 GMT -5
I grew a planting of Shiraz a few years ago. I loved how easy it was to pick the very visible pods, but the flavor is harsh and NOT sweet. At least grown here. It was a disappointment.
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Post by galina on Jun 29, 2018 10:02:14 GMT -5
I crossed my large yellow Court Estate Gold with Sugar Magnolia and expected the F1 to be purple last year. It wasn't. Blotchy green/purple. Then I crossed the blotchy F1 back to Sugar Magnolia last year and have this year grown the F1 of that cross. SM x (SM x CEG F1) F1 I have no idea whether this is written correctly and would appreciate help.
This F1 is dark, dark purple, very solid colour, quite unlike last year and actually as dark as the darkest Sugar Magnolias. The pod is a 4 inch shelling pea looking pod. I am sure it is fibreless with that parentage, just don't want to eat any of these precious pods this year.
Question: Does purple get better by crossing what should have been a purple F1 with a purple pea? Can purple genes be strengthened by crossing purple with purple? I am delighted at this. And hope that in future generations it will translate into a solid red mangetout and snap pea of large proportions if and when the Court Estate Gold recessive genes show up in the F2 and F3 generations.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 29, 2018 13:27:44 GMT -5
I crossed my large yellow Court Estate Gold with Sugar Magnolia and expected the F1 to be purple last year. It wasn't. Blotchy green/purple. Then I crossed the blotchy F1 back to Sugar Magnolia last year and have this year grown the F1 of that cross. SM x (SM x CEG F1) F1 I have no idea whether this is written correctly and would appreciate help. This F1 is dark, dark purple, very solid colour, quite unlike last year and actually as dark as the darkest Sugar Magnolias. The pod is a 4 inch shelling pea looking pod. I am sure it is fibreless with that parentage, just don't want to eat any of these precious pods this year. Question: Does purple get better by crossing what should have been a purple F1 with a purple pea? Can purple genes be strengthened by crossing purple with purple? I am delighted at this. And hope that in future generations it will translate into a solid red mangetout and snap pea of large proportions if and when the Court Estate Gold recessive genes show up in the F2 and F3 generations. Good on you galina. Yeah, crossing a purple or partially purple with a more stable or another purple is a great idea. I suspect that when you get homozygous for the purple genes you have less of the splotchy purple coverage, but i don't know. It certainly can't hurt and you'd have less chance of the purple genes segregating back out into green. Even if you have a poor red pod it would be clever to cross it back to a good purple. You'd still need to wait for the yellow to reappear, but its a quick way to improve a red. Hopefully you get some yellows to reemerge with that backcross, but there is a chance they yellow got eliminated just from a 50% chance. I have that red snap that is ok, but I'd still like to improve it. By crossing it back to a purple snow pea i think that could be the fastest way to get something better. I tried sharing seed with Joseph and ethin, but i don't know if they got any to grow. |
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Post by galina on Jun 29, 2018 17:55:21 GMT -5
Thankyou keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.), would have never thought of crossing a poor red to a purple. I have not so good reds from two different crosses, one with Shiraz as the purple parent and also with Sugar Magnolia. Must grow both next year and cross. Thank you for giving me an idea here. |
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Post by galina on Jun 30, 2018 9:33:13 GMT -5
keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) templeton and others. Could I ask you to cast an eye on these peas please: www.growingfoodsavingseeds.co.uk/forum/main-forum/peas/220-court-estate-gold-x-shiraz/page7especially the two icy yellow coloured ones with their red speckling posted on 30 June 18. One has apparently random speckles in the centre of the pea, the other a faint band of red speckles at the end opposite to the seeds. Which (if any) of the purple genes do these different patterns correspond to? Looking at the nearly red pea on the same page, would the pea with the random speckles supply the 'missing' gene to fill in the missing colour to make the red pea completely red if I crossed them with each other and selected out red offspring? Or does it just not work like that?
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