Manchurian/Scout Apricot

[blueadzuki]

I have to ask (since it sounds like you got these off of an actual tree), is this Manchurian one of the Hunza/Sweet Pit type apricots? It's just that I've been playing around with pits of those, or at least pits of what I hope are those for some while. Small tannish pit in apricots are findable at some of my local Indian and Middle Eastern markets, and I have been half curios if the fruit (which I find overly sweet and flat when dried, is more palatable when fresh. Plus if they really ARE sweet pits, having a supply of what amounts to ersatz almonds would be a bonus too.

From previous experiments, I know they definitely don't need chilling.

[blueadzuki]

Well, if mine ever turn out to be sweet (Joseph, if you are reading this, what is the fatal dose for apricot pits? Is it high enough I could get away with simply chewing on one of the ones I have without risking killing myself?) I can always send you some pits.

What it boils down to is this: I know that Hunza apricots have sweet pits, but I don't know if the apricots I have are Hunzas. They sort of LOOK like Hunzas, and the flesh sort of TASTES like Hunza but I don't know if there are other standard ones that have that color and flavor. The company that used to sell pit in Hunza (one of those raw food companies) seems to have been dropped, or at least dropped from Whole Foods suppliers. So I'm sort of shooting in the dark.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Jan 23, 2016 6:53:01 GMT -5 blueadzuki said:

Well, if mine ever turn out to be sweet (Joseph, if you are reading this, what is the fatal dose for apricot pits? Is it high enough I could get away with simply chewing on one of the ones I have without risking killing myself?) I can always send you some pits.

I think that I remember that last time I did the math, the LD50 was in the cups of seed range... No need to chew on them. Licking is sufficient.

[blueadzuki]

Got it. I assume you should split the seed first though; I assume the skin tastes different from the actual kernel.

I'm also assuming cyanide/amygdalin tastes sort of bitter (since the almonds are called bitter almonds)

[mskrieger]

yeah, it would taste bitter. The cyanide is present in small amounts in almonds--that accounts for the almond aroma, actually. Supposedly. I just did a little research and found out that not everyone can smell the 'bitter almond' scent.

Hm. Anyway blueadzuki, don't lick too many.

[mskrieger]

toomanyirons Yeah, I have heard the same things. And started to experiment, tasting very small amounts of plants I encounter and evaluating for flavor. Unlike you, I tolerate fairly high levels of bitterness, so I try to be really careful. It does seem to me entirely plausible that ancient humans could have found marginally more edible varieties using this method and selected for them.

I never taste fungi without an expert ID'ing it for me first, but the plant world is fair game. Experiencing the world with my tongue adds an entirely new dimension.

Kinda like being two years old again. In a good way.

[blueadzuki]

If you want to be TRULY technical, the chemical in the pit itself is something called amygdalin. In our bodies this can be digested by an enzyme (probably called something like amygdalinase) and broken into one glucose molecule, one benzaldehyde molecule (the chemical that makes the almond scent) some water (I think) and.....one molecule of hydrogen cyanide. When a pit is referred to as having more or less cyanide, it actually has more or less amygdalin. That's sort of why bitter almonds are still grown for the perfume industry. No one needs the cyanide (cyanide is used for metal cleaning and some other things, but potassium cyanide is preferred for those, since it's a solid and hydrogen cyanide is a gas.) But more amydalin also means more benzaldehyde, so more bang for your buck scent wise.

Actually this has always let me to an interesting question. The reason why squirrels and birds aren't killed by eating the pits (there usually smaller than humans, so you'd think they'd be even more sensitive) is that they don't have the enzyme and so the amygdalin passes through their system unbroken and inert. Since there is no biological process that does not have a few individuals with it malfunctioning, I have wondered if there are people whose genes mean they fail to make that enzyme properly and are hence utterly immune to bitter almonds and the like.

That sort of wild ancestor fear is one reason I'm so careful with the off seeds I find with regards to consumption. Since a lot of them are ones that are closer to wild than is normal, I tend to treat them as curiosities or ornamentals, not food. I may grow wild soybeans (they show up from time to time in the rice beans) but I'd NEVER actually try to eat them (though I have heard they are good for your hair and skin, when applied topically) I usually wont even eat a "normal" bean if it's a significantly darker color than the industry average for the crop (for example the average for horse gram is sort of a mottled pinky tan, so no black ones*)

* Does have some exceptions. With some crops, the diversity of colors of seed means I consider all colors safe. Common beans, Lima beans, Runner beans, soybeans, Cowpeas, Chickpeas and some other are OK even when black.

Ironically it's the "failed" ones I'm usually seeking out, since they usually have the brighter flowers

[diane]

Way back when there was a lot of interest in the Hunza, I read that they taste the seeds of any new apricot tree, and chop it out if the seeds are bitter.

[diane]

I was just referring to the trees that actually grow in Hunza. I don't remember reading whether they often found a bitter kernel.


I don't know whether those ones now are exported.

[steev]

I went to a CRFG meeting featuring a lecture and tasting of raw almonds, which were described as having a range of non-bitterness, all being fine when toasted; I thought the bitterest (only a tang) was the most tasty, as the others were just bland and characterless.

[diane]

I decided to see if I could find which book I had read about the Hunza and their tasting of apricot kernels to be sure they were sweet.

I didn't find it, and I think that whatever I read was not true.

I did find a book, Hunza: Lost Kingdom of the Himalayas, written in 1957 by John Clark who spent 20 months in Hunza, running a clinic and school.

Here are a few excerpts about apricots:

Hunzas are good horticulturists. They have practiced grafting apricot trees for over
sixteen hundred years. They recognize at least six local varieties of apricots

The sweet apricot nuts are eaten plain.
The bitter ones are ground with stone mortars, usually in well-worn holes
on a nearby granite rock surface, and the oil is squeezed by hand from the
resulting nut meal. This oil is highly poisonous. It is used for fuel in the
little shallow saucer lamps, with a cotton twist for a wick.

Women in Hunza commit suicide oftener than men.
Sometimes they jump off a cliff, or in less desperate straits they eat fifty
bitter apricot seeds. These contain a lethal dose of prussic acid, but it is
absorbed so slowly that death does not come for several hours. If an
emetic is given during that time their lives can be saved.

[steev]

No; the presenter was a long-established almond grower and the samples were all commercial cultivars.

[blueadzuki]

Feb 9, 2016 10:55:50 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

Feb 8, 2016 17:53:35 GMT -5 diane said:

If edible sweet-seeded strains are rare then how can this be offered: Sweet Apricot Kernels  As a side note, being a raw organic product I wonder if they are viable...

Should be, though the fact they seem to be already shelled means you'd probably lose a bit to damage. Certainly I have no problem getting pits out of the apricots I'm working with from the Indian grocery store to germinate, at about the same rate you seem to be having* (of course we're talking about starting from whole dried apricots and pits I opened myself)

If it is any help it looks like, based on the color of the dried fruits, Hunza/sweet pit apricots may be a lot paler in color than the normal kind. In fact I think they may actually be white, given that the dried fruit is more or less pale tan (unsulphured "normal" apricots turn sort of dark brown, so I have to assume that a dried unsulphered (if they are fully organic and raw, they wouldn't be treated) apricot that is buff started as a color that was very pale yellow to "white" (cream).

* the ones I got from the store in the city had such a rate, the ones I'm working with now seem to be a bit lower.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

As far as I am concerned, most of the things being sold online and claiming to be food are actually poisonous to humans. I'd put any product made with wheat in that category, and any that contain soybean oil, or canola. Potatoes and beans are poisonous. I consider the anti-nutrients in nuts to be poisons. Some adults are poisoned by dairy.

So in a world awash in poisons, I'm not all that concerned about the poisons in an apricot kernel. The poison is well behaved. A highly poisonous kernel tastes highly poisonous. The lethal dose that will tend to kill 50% of the people that eat it, is in the cups of seeds range. So licking one seed to test for poisons is far below the danger point. Our bodies are very good at detoxing small amounts of cyanide because it is so common in the foods we eat.

I grew lupini beans, which are highly poisonous raw. The preparation technique requires about a week of soaking and multiple changes of water per day to render them non-poisonous. (I mean to say, tremendously less poisonous.)

toomanyirons: Are you able to grow peaches/almonds?

[castanea]

Feb 9, 2016 10:55:50 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

Feb 8, 2016 17:53:35 GMT -5 diane said:

I was just referring to the trees that actually grow in Hunza. I don't remember reading whether they often found a bitter kernel.


I don't know whether those ones now are exported.

I understand.  I guess I was just assuming that the trees grown in the Hunza valley are edible-seeded variants of either P. mandshurica or P. armeniaca.  It would be nice to know but not much info out there.  I am also starting to assume, from what you are saying and from what I have read elsewhere, that there are no stable edible sweet-seeded strains in existence.  Meaning that every tree has to be proven to have edible sweet seeds, and for that matter growing trees from edible sweet seeds does not guarantee those trees will themselves produce edible sweet seeds.  It all seems to be a crap shoot.

Another issue I am confused about:  Are any P. mandshurica known to produce edible sweet seeds or are they only produced on P. armeniaca?  If only produced on P. armeniaca, are edible sweet seeds consistently produced or is it not known until the trees mature so that the seeds can be tasted and proven?

I also find this edible/inedible apricot kernel issue to be a confusing topic.  Are the bitter ones toxic, truly harmful to humans, or not?  I am of the opinion that they are in fact unsafe to consume.  But if harmful then how can this product be offered: Bitter Apricot Kernels  Am I to understand that a product is being offered on Amazon that will kill people or at least make them sick if they purchase and consume?

If edible sweet-seeded strains are rare then how can this be offered: Sweet Apricot Kernels  As a side note, being a raw organic product I wonder if they are viable...

My reason for belaboring this discussion is simply that I want to acquire some apricot trees that produce edible sweet seeds, and I want to be 100% certain that what I acquire will in fact be an edible sweet-seeded variant.  Otherwise I will have simply planted more of what I already have and will have wasted my time.  If 100% certainty is not possible, I accept that but it means I will not bother with the attempt.  At this point it does not look very promising to me but I am still hopeful.  Not many decent nut-producing varieties of trees and shrubs grow in my climate and this seems like it could be an acceptable addition to my foodscape.

steev - That sounds like it would have been interesting to attend.  Did they have any wild ones for tasting?

[Edit]  I posted this while not being aware of Diane's most recent post...

I am not aware of anyone who is selling sweet seeded grafted apricots specifically because they have sweet seeds nor am I aware of anyone who has come up with a variety that breeds true for sweetness. I just started planting sweet seeds a few years ago and in another 20-30 years maybe I'll have something that breeds true.