andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
|
Post by andyb on Dec 13, 2017 22:51:04 GMT -5
I'm going to make a first attempt with selfed pollen from a stigma on the same plant tonight. I'm guessing it'll take some experimentation to figure out all the details of the procedure, and figuring out exactly how to dissect the flower is one of the first steps. I won't have any tepary pollen to work with for at least a few weeks.
Any info you can find out about pollen germination media would be greatly appreciated. I'll definitely post updates when I have results to report.
|
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Dec 14, 2017 9:50:53 GMT -5
Hi andyb, have sent you a pm with the Phaseolus pollen growth recipe. Good luck.
Cheers
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Dec 29, 2017 3:01:45 GMT -5
Does anyone know of some simple Mendelian monogenic (conditionally speaking) early marker gene that could be used to identify successful crosses?
There are many information about flower and seed coat color but they are late scoring markers. For indoor growing, space is very limited and growing plant till flowering or, even worse, till dry seed before cross can be identified is very unpractical.
Hypogeal vs epigeal cotyledons, for common x runner bean crosses, are nice example (although not monogenic) of what I'm looking for. Something that can be scored early in order to focus efforts.
So far my best candidate is hypo-, epy- and cotyledon color.
Anyone knows any other example?
|
|
|
|
Post by philagardener on Dec 29, 2017 8:23:12 GMT -5
P. coccineus "Golden Sunshine" has chartreuse foliage, but that pigmentation defect does not seem to interfere with productivity. Likely a recessive Mendelian trait (although as it affects chlorophyll pigmentation there is a small chance it may be maternally inherited), it might be scored at the first true leaf stage.
Perhaps someone here can comment on the appearance of offspring from "Golden Sunshine" plants grown near other varieties.
|
|
|
|
Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Dec 29, 2017 13:54:23 GMT -5
P. coccineus "Golden Sunshine" has chartreuse foliage... Likely a recessive Mendelian trait (although as it affects chlorophyll pigmentation there is a small chance it may be maternally inherited), it might be scored at the first true leaf stage. First true leaf would be early enough. Of course, provided that it is chromosome coded. It would be helpful if someone has experience using it in crosses. Just to be clear, I'm looking for candidates from P. vulgaris, P. coccineus or P. lunatus. Best, Srdjan |
|
andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
|
Post by andyb on Jan 6, 2018 0:50:34 GMT -5
Does anyone know of some simple Mendelian monogenic (conditionally speaking) early marker gene that could be used to identify successful crosses? There are many information about flower and seed coat color but they are late scoring markers. For indoor growing, space is very limited and growing plant till flowering or, even worse, till dry seed before cross can be identified is very unpractical. Hypogeal vs epigeal cotyledons, for common x runner bean crosses, are nice example (although not monogenic) of what I'm looking for. Something that can be scored early in order to focus efforts. So far my best candidate is hypo-, epy- and cotyledon color. Anyone knows any other example? I don't know of any specific genes to use as markers. For my projects involving more advanced crosses, I'm planning to mostly use the presence/absence of anthocyanins. This seems to be reliably visible in most of the tissues of very young plants as long as they've been exposed to light for a day or two. Is that what you mean by hypo-, epy- and cotyledon color? I also use the intermediate position of the cotyledons to identify F1 common x runner bean crosses. It's a good one. For common/runner x tepary crosses, I'm hoping to use the length of the petiole of the first true leaf in a similar way. it's really short on tepary beans and pretty long on common and runner beans. I haven't made any successful crosses or found any pictures of these crosses, so I'll have to wait and see. Let us know if you find any good marker genes. They would be really useful. |
|
|
|
Post by walt on Jan 6, 2018 14:05:29 GMT -5
Don't purple beans have purple stems? I don't have any growing just now, being winter and all. But it seems like I've seen purple stems and leaf veins. But I'm not sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Srdjan Gavrilovic on Jan 6, 2018 14:11:58 GMT -5
I'm planning to mostly use the presence/absence of anthocyanins. This seems to be reliably visible in most of the tissues of very young plants as long as they've been exposed to light for a day or two. Is that what you mean by hypo-, epy- and cotyledon color? For common/runner x tepary crosses, I'm hoping to use the length of the petiole of the first true leaf in a similar way. it's really short on tepary beans and pretty long on common and runner beans. I haven't made any successful crosses or found any pictures of these crosses, so I'll have to wait and see. Yes, I was aiming exactly at it. However, the problem is that at least 3 genes with dominant effect are needed in order to have anthocyanins visually detectable in seedlings. For scoring F1, it sounds great but from there further on is more questionable. 1/2 to 1/8 of downstream hybrids (using the F1 as pollen donor and visually "green" mother) would be identifiable using the method. Can be worked with and is my best candidate atm but having monogenic marker gene would give 1/2 of identifiable crosses. Did not look into tepary beans and crosses with them but it sounds very interesting. I hope that you will have success and share info with us  |
|
Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
|
Post by Day on Jan 6, 2018 18:27:27 GMT -5
Don't purple beans have purple stems? I don't have any growing just now, being winter and all. But it seems like I've seen purple stems and leaf veins. But I'm not sure. I can only speak for the common bean, but everything that flowers purple for me also has a purple stem (but necessarily pods). It's one of the ways I discovered my Magpie bean rogues -- after getting a single purple flowered, half-runner from a seed pack (magpie should be bush and white flowered) I direct seeded more beans from the original seed packet to see if there were other crosses. A day or two before leaves were expected, I dug down to check the stem color (since I figured whatever crossed with the first magpie was also probably the father of any other crosses). All the ones with purple stems and purple flushed cotyledons turned out to have purple flowers, and produced clearly crossed beans. The green stemmed ones produced the typical B&w magpie beans and white flowers.   Pod color varied however - two had purple streaked pods like rattlesnake, while the two others had plain green pods. All four had purple flushed stem and cotyledons like the image on the left, however. |
|
|
|
Post by walt on Jan 7, 2018 15:51:53 GMT -5
So purple stems and chartreuse foliage are two markers that are probably single gene each. But neither of us have tested them. You can be the first (on your block) to test them.
|
|
andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
|
Post by andyb on May 31, 2018 15:36:09 GMT -5
toomanyirons, thanks for the grow report! To add a little context, these are mostly attempted F1 common x runner bean crosses. I think I also sent you some F1 tepary crosses, but I don't remember for sure. I'm most interested in how many of the common x runner beans are real crosses, and not selfed. At this stage, you can tell by looking at the position of the cotyledons relative to the soil and to the first true leaves. If they're selfed common beans, the cotyledons will be right below the leaves. If they're crossed with runner beans, the cotyledons will be quite a bit lower, maybe mid-way between the ground and the leaves. Later on, when they're flowering, I'd expect any crosses to have pink, peach, or red flowers. I think this thread is a good place to post updates, but don't worry about keeping careful notes just for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 9, 2018 21:10:42 GMT -5
I'm most interested in how many of the common x runner beans are real crosses, and not selfed. At this stage, you can tell by looking at the position of the cotyledons relative to the soil and to the first true leaves. Seeds from this project have germinated. 7 have cotyledons at or below ground-level. (Looking like runner beans). 3 have cotyledons above ground. (looking like common beans). Successful crosses (common bean X runner bean). Cotyledons at ground level or below.  High Resolution photoUnsuccessful crosses? (common bean X runner bean). The 3 plants closest to camera have cotyledons high above ground.  High Resolution photoI had a blow-out on the irrigation line the other night, and it washed away about 2" of soil from the top of the garden, exposing some runner bean seedlings. The cotyledons stayed where they were planted in the ground. With the hybrids, the cotyledons travelled upwards around 1.5 inches through the soil to end up at/near ground-level. Pure runner bean seedlings  Pure runner bean seedling  |
|
andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
|
Post by andyb on Jun 11, 2018 22:13:35 GMT -5
Seeds from this project have germinated. 7 have cotyledons at or below ground-level. (Looking like runner beans). 3 have cotyledons above ground. (looking like common beans). ... Unsuccessful crosses? (common bean X runner bean). The 3 plants closest to camera have cotyledons high above ground. High Resolution photoThanks for the feedback! I think the middle one above might be a cross as well. The cotyledons are reasonably far below the leaves. It should be pretty easy to tell if they're real crosses by the time they flower, and certainly if you get seeds from them. I'm not terribly surprised that some of them probably aren't real crosses. I made a bunch of these crosses outside with pollen from flowers that were already open, and often in the evening when some pollen might have already been released before I emasculated the seed parent's flowers. I also hadn't started dipping my tweezers in alcohol between crosses, for many of them. |
|
andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
|
Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2018 22:32:42 GMT -5
Last winter, I got two seeds from attempted MolR x ((GGC x MolR) x GGC) crosses. I planted one of them, it sprouted, and the cotyledons are above the ground and right below the first leaves. Success!
This is the first time I've managed to get a wide cross with a runner bean seed parent. If it produces viable flowers I plan to cross it with several common beans, including some bush beans. I'll also let some flowers self-pollinate.
MolR = Moldovanesti Buffalo Runner Bean (P. coccineus)
GGC = Golden Gaucho (P. vulgaris)
|
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Jul 2, 2018 22:04:55 GMT -5
Hi AndyB, came across this the other day and thought it'd be worth putting it up in here (in case you haven't come across this already). Evidently when crossing vulgaris x coccineus there are three lethal domininant genes or incompatability barriers to get past (crinkle leaf dwarf sub lethal/semi sterile, blocked cotyledon lethal and dwarf lethal). Good news is that one line of vulgaris has been identified with all three of the recessive genes that allow interspecific crosses (ICA Pijao). Theres a few other lines that have some of the recessive characters. See Barriers to Interspecific Hybridization in Crosses between Phaseolus coccineus L. (G35172) and Phaseolus vulgaris L. by F.H. Ferwerda and M. J. Bassett naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND22077043/PDFCheers Steve |
|
