Peacock Bean (edit: Purple Palm)

[Day]

*edit -- apparently there is already a 'purple peacock pole bean,' so to avoid confusion I've changed its nickname to 'purple palm pole bean.' Good catch Ferdzy!

I ordered a packet of Magpie beans (Phaseolus vulgaris) earlier this year. It seems there was some funny business in the bee department, because one of the seeds did not produce a white flowered bush plant, but rather a pale purple flowered pole plant. I'm going to link to this first blog post I did about this F1/rogue, if only to save myself from retyping everything. No obligation to read it (HERE) but it will give you more info and background on the project, should you desire it.

Anyway, I finally have a dry bean to show for it, with more beans still drying on their pods. I was hoping you all could help me try to riddle out a likely culprit for the father. Since the beans arrived to me as accidental F1s, I plan to get in touch with Baker Creek and see if they can get me a list of what varieties their Magpie grower was also growing, so I can narrow the field down. Until then, I'd love to hear your guesses and any insight you all may have.

First, pictures of the bean (which has been dubbed the Purple Peacock Pole bean Purple Palm Pole Bean)




As always, please forgive the terrible photos. My camera is my phone. For comparison, here's what a magpie bean is supposed to look like:


photo from Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds.

As I'm still learning about bean genetics, I'm curious to hear any ideas of what the cross might be with. The F1 plant was pole, with pale purple flowers and unmarked green standard shaped pods. Magpie mother is bush of varying heights, white flowers, and with light green (though not yellow) filet pods.

[andyb]

Did it produce a lot of full-sized pods and dry beans, or did most of the flowers fall off?

[Day]

Most of the flowers fell off in the beginning. I'd say a good month or more with dropped blossoms only and no beans setting; however, it was also 90-100+ degrees most of that time, so that may have been the cause. I'd pulled up the rest of the fried beans, so I don't have any other blossom setting to compare it to.

When it finally did set a bean, they came in a flush. Not prolific by bean standards, but it's not had an easy life considering its location in the garden. There are probably 6 - 10 beans on the plant right now, most drying up. A few new beans are still forming and it's still putting out blossoms, but at a much slower rate now.

Pods are mostly full size, save the first one, but not all the beans are forming inside each one. Which is to say, the pods are long, and I can see the depression where five or so beans should go, but usually only two or three are actually swelling.

[ferdzy]

Lovely!

But do I understand you want to name it Purple Peacock? Because there already is a variety of pole bean called Purple Peacock.

www.google.ca/search?q=purple+peacock+bean&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=Gv-mWemcDcvXjwTm46PADA

Also, then next generation will not be consistent. Likely you will get some plants that look like that and you can spend a few years weeding out the non-conforming beans and turn it into a stable variety, but you don't have that right now, I'm pretty sure.

[reed]

Good luck figuring out what the father variety might be. I'm finding that the seed of crosses often has little to no resemblance to the mother variety nor to any of the other varieties I might have been growing.

[Day]

ferdzy - nice catch! Peacock was it's nickname because I had to erect a palm frond umbrella to shade it from two terrible heat waves in June. Sorta looked like a peacock tale, and so it stuck. But of course there would already be one named that. I'll still call it peacock for now, at least until the F2 segregates. The name isn't for any claiming purposes, rather just so I don't have to call it the "weird magpie pole bean with purple flowers" all the time xD

And yes, you're absolutely right. This bean is most likely an F1, and as such it's only expressing the dominant genes inherited from each parent (and it likely heterozygous for both, since both varieties were open pollinated and mostly stable). Which is why I was hoping some of you guys savvy in bean genetics could help me riddle out what color is dominant to black, or if this shade of purple/pattern only exists in heterozygous form, etc. Clearly filet shape is not dominant, nor is white marking, nor bush growth. Purple flowers can also be assumed to be dominant to white. What I don't know much about are bean color/pattern genetics, like what would cause the mottling look or the dusky purple color.

I'm expecting the other beans I'll harvest in the coming week from this same plant to look nearly identical, as F1s tend to, but it'll be fun to grow out this F2 and see the much wider diversity of phenotypes in those beans.

reed - Yeah genetics can be weird that way. I still love the process, though. Because the bees have no interest in my beans, I've never had a mystery cross before. Only ones I've done by hand, and since I know who the parents are, it's not much of a mystery alas.


edit: Purple Palm is now its nickname, to avoid confusion

[reed]

Aug 30, 2017 16:56:53 GMT -5 Day said:

reed - Yeah genetics can be weird that way. I still love the process, though. Because the bees have no interest in my beans, I've never had a mystery cross before. Only ones I've done by hand, and since I know who the parents are, it's not much of a mystery alas.


edit: Purple Palm is now its nickname, to avoid confusion

O' that  never occurred to me that you don't have bees. When I first started getting serious about saving all my own seeds I read Susan Ashworth's book "Seed to Seed" and it said bean crosses were unlikely cause they usually were pollinated before the flower even opened. Well that may or may not be true but in my garden bumblebees LOVE beans and random crosses are common.

I keep that book as a reference mostly for what species something is but I do not recommend it for a gardener unless they are interested in preserving the romanticized provenance of some so called "heirloom".  Before I knew better and found this forum that book almost made me give up the idea of saving seed. I finally learned that worrying about population sizes, isolation and all that crap is counterproductive to growing food and developing sustainable strains let alone finding great new things. 

[Day]

We have honey bees and some mason bees, but I've yet to see a single bumble bee. The only chewing through I've seen is on the squash blossoms, but I think that's mostly so the bees can get out, not in. The blossoms wilt so fast in our heat that the little buzzers can get trapped if they linger too long. As the temps get hotter (won't have a day under 100 this week or half of next) I see more and more squash blossom holes. Curcurbits in general the bees will visit, but they couldn't care less about anything else in the garden. Even the bolting basil and mint are almost entirely ignored.

Aug 30, 2017 19:56:10 GMT -5 reed said:

I keep that book as a reference mostly for what species something is but I do not recommend it for a gardener unless they are interested in preserving the romanticized provenance of some so called "heirloom".  Before I knew better and found this forum that book almost made me give up the idea of saving seed. I finally learned that worrying about population sizes, isolation and all that crap is counterproductive to growing food and developing sustainable strains let alone finding great new things. 

Right! One of the first books I read on plant breeding was luckily Carol Deppe's first book (the first half specifically; the second half in the new edition seems almost to recant most of the first half, like she got scolded for bucking the establishment after the first edition came out, and she's trying somehow to make amends in the second). That book was truly one of the best introductions to plant breeding you can get. It's not a bible or a textbook, but rather like a friend slapping you on your back saying "Go get'm tiger!"

I agree that seed to seed has some great info on the reproductive processes of vegetables; whenever I'm growing something I've never grown before, I always read the chapter related as a 'primer.' Then, I disregard 99% of it and do what I want. In that way, her book can be quite useful -- it shows you the rules, so you can decide which ones to break. But I agree, unless you're a diehard purebred heirloom seed saver, it's quite a disheartening book. She doesn't even sound happy while she's writing it. It's like she's locked up in a Château d'If, scribbling away in mournful silence about isolation distances, with maybe a ghostly holler or cracking whip in the background.

Meanwhile, Carol's dancing around some vegetable Bacchanalia, getting drunk and flirtly and flinging anther confetti on everyone.

I mean, if I had to pick...

[steev]

I'll not comment on Carol Deppe, being pretty busy just finding out what, if anything, I can grow, given my environmental, climatological, and insect/critter issues; what happened to "stick the seed in the ground and come back to harvest the produce"? Guess I didn't read the fine print, not having my reading glasses ready to hand.

[reed]

I love Carol's books. I have heard people criticize her because she talks about growing in Oregon. Well, duh, she lives in Oregon, if they want a "what you should do" instead of a "what I did" they should go with Ashworth.

What I did, how and why I did it, how it turned out, are all far more interesting and valuable to me than "what you should do" that's why I like this forum. Authors and advisers that are too focused on "what you should do" rarely offer much of value.

Stories from gardeners are useful, instructions from garden writers are not.

[ferdzy]

If I didn't grow Cherokee Trail of Tears, I would think beans practically never crossed, more or less as widely advertised. I've had about 10 crossed beans turn up in my garden and all but one have had CToT as the dad. It looks to me like the dad of your bean would also have been a black one, and also large and flattish. If that helps narrow it down.

Actually, looking at Baker Creek's bean list there is one called "Nonna" that looks very possible. It's described as a landrace, and I often wonder if CToT is as well. It's not black, but a very dark blue. (I notice my black beans look blue/purple before they are completely mature; I wonder if they are related colours?) Aaaand now I want Nonna beans.

[blueadzuki]

Speaking from my work with rice and other small beans, there are several ways you can get to black. Very dark purple/blue is one. Very dark brown is another. Ultra dark red can get there (though that will usually go brown first). And if a bean is mottled, the mottling can get so heavy it covers over the whole surface.

[reed]

Can't say for sure cause I generally grow too many different kinds together and don't keep good records but crosses by runners come up with a lot of pretty blues and purples. I'm finding interesting off types in most of the common beans I grew next to a big row of runners in 2014. The mother of one that I'v been growing out since was the black bean, Ideal Market.  One  segregation seems to be stabilizing into a medium to large flat tan colored bean. The pods are long, straight 8 - 10 inches with purple streaks.  

[Day]

steev - nothing wrong with 'chuck it and pluck it' gardening at all. But when people say we shouldn't dabble in breeding our own vegetables (if we want to) it's kinda like saying we shouldn't make our own furniture, but always buy it. But why would I do that? I can make a bed frame in an afternoon out of 2x4 and 2x6s and some 1x4 slats. I have the tools and the knowledge. I can make the dimensions exactly how I want, and it'll cost significantly less. I can paint/stain it however I want. I don't have to compromise with what a big company thinks I want. They don't know me, my house, or my specific needs. Instead, I can go ahead and do it myself. However, yes, I might make mistakes. An extra accidental drill hole, the left leg ending up a cm longer than the right. But I can read books, learn better techniques, and join the furniture maker forum equivalent of Homegrown Goodness.

That's the approach I take to plant breeding. If someone wants to buy seed packs and save seeds and preserve isolation distances (or just re-buy each year), that's totally fine by me. It's their garden, their choice. Just like if someone wants to buy their furniture instead of making it. 99% of us buy furniture at some point. I sure as shit didn't forge my metal side table. No one would get mad if you build a bed frame with your own time, your own money, and in your own driveway. They'd probably be impressed. But cross a vegetable (with your own time, own money, and in your own garden) and my word... people act as if you're reanimating corpses or something.  

reed - I agree that both types of knowledge can be useful depending on the situation. I've found there's a very strong Pacific Northwest and Midwest bias in most US vegetable gardening books, of both types. Ashworth's is useful because she breaks down approximate planting dates and growing methods depending on several key regions in the US. They're short little sections, true, but can help me decide how early to sow cabbage and whether I should stick with spring sown or fall sown fava beans, etc. On the other hand, while Deppe's narrative focuses almost entirely on Oregon growing, her methodology and thought process is what's really valuable. If we use puzzles as a metaphor, Ashworth teaches you the answers to the most common puzzles. On the other hand, Deppe teaches you how puzzles work, how they're designed, and some clever ways to solve them. Then it's up to you to apply those skills to puzzles you encounter. Ashworth will solve the puzzles for you, but you're stuck if you encounter one not covered in her book. In a way, each of our gardens is a puzzle. No one else has exactly the same set of circumstances and growing conditions. It's up to the individual to decide which method works best for them. Deppe's works better for me.

ferdzy - I'm actually growing Nonna this year, funny you should mention it! They're still growing, but the beans in the packet were actually medium-small size and blunt ended in shape, though not quite as strongly as a tradition cutshort. Reminded me a lot of the Fort portal jade bean, just molded into a slightly different shape. I would hardly call them blue, much more slate/black in color. They also have the same tendency of Fort Portal to segregate into pole, half runner, and bush. The description for Nonna says pole, but of the twelve seeds I've planted only four are shooting for the sun. Another four or five are thinking about it, and the last few are tiny squatties. Same thing happened with Fort Portal, and so now I've got separate seeds saved for each type.

blueadzuki - very useful, thank you! I'd definitely say this bean is of the very dark purple/blue sort. I've held it up to several different light sources, ranging from natural to led to warm bulbs, to ensure I wasn't getting a biased view. I cannot detect any red/yellow/brown tones at all. And the mottling does seem to cover most of the bean, though with the dark base color it's difficult to say for sure. It appears that the mottling is the darker of the two colors, which seems to be pretty consistent with the mottled beans I can think of off the top of my head, like Good Mother Stallard and pinto beans in general.

[philagardener]

Aug 31, 2017 14:25:59 GMT -5 Day said:

They also have the same tendency of Fort Portal to segregate into pole, half runner, and bush. The description for Nonna says pole, but of the twelve seeds I've planted only four are shooting for the sun. Another four or five are thinking about it, and the last few are tiny squatties. Same thing happened with Fort Portal, and so now I've got separate seeds saved for each type.

Interesting experiment, looking forward to hearing the outcomes.  I've had a lot of bush varieties occasionally show some spunk and wondered if there is a cultural component (stress, shading).  It's also possible it's genetic diversity traipsing through the garden on bees' knees.  Like reed , I seem to have a fair bit of that goin' on in the garden.