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Post by PatrickW on Aug 1, 2009 8:35:27 GMT -5
Jo, if you got the email as well, Tim probably didn't intend me to publish it on the Internet. I only saw my name in the header, and he said 'you guys' in the text, so I guessed he wanted me to forward it... Probably the offer for seeds is only the people he sent the email to.
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Post by bunkie on Aug 1, 2009 9:26:45 GMT -5
i received the email also, and in it he said to do with the offer with whatever i wished. i was going to post it here, but thanks patrick for already doing so. the perennial tomatilloes and cherries sound good to me too... i am surprized that there has been no discussion on my post about the Ergot fungi. does it not concern any of you that this could destroy your crop or sit in your soil to come up in other grains? if left unattended in wild areas, it could affect the natural balance of plants. the more i read, the more i need to read about it... Ergot is a form of a fungus parasitic on grasses, one of the best known species being that found on rye. The fungus is most easily recognized in the second stage of its development, when the hard, dark purple or almost black masses (sclerotia) are seen at intervals on the heads of rye, where they have usurped the position of the seed of their host. These sclerotia, or ergots, as they are popularly called, may be observed from June till late in the autumn, according to the nature of the species of ergot and host plant. In the autumn, they fall to the ground and remain in a resting stage throughout the winter. When the warm weather begins again, they show signs of awakening life by the appearance of small cracks, through which diminutive stalked bodies (stromata) make their way. In, the head of the stroma are numerous flask-shaped cavities (perithecia) each of which contains a number of narrow cells (asci) and each of these in its turn contains eight thread-like spores or reproductive bodies. The mature spores escape from the perithecia about the time of flowering of the host plant, rye or grass, as the case may be. When a spore falls into a floret of a suitable host plant, it develops a so-called mycelium, and a honey-like substance called "honeydew" is abundantly produced. The honeydew exudes in large glistening drops from the floret. This sweet substance, which is eagerly sought by midges, flies and other insects, is filled with very minute microscopic bodies (conidia), another reproductive form of the fungus. The conidia are capable of immediate germination and are carried by insects to other plants. Thus what is known as "ergot disease" spreads rapidly, throughout the flowering season of its host. The mycelial threads continue to develop, and in time form a dark compact mass two or three times the size of the seed of the host plant. This new ergot eventually falls to the ground and the life cycle is complete.
Dr. Staeger, of Berne, Switzerland, has firmly established the fact that each species of ergot has its own circle of hosts within which it moves exclusively. He has shown by successful experiments carried on for a number of years past, that ergot of rye will infect barley and the following grasses:
Reed canary grass (Phalaris arundinacea L.); Sweet vernal grass (Anthoxanthum odoratum L.); Sweet or holy grass (Hierochloe odorata [L.] Wahlenb.); Meadow foxtail (Alopecurus pratensis L.);Tall oat grass (Arrhenatherum elatius [L.J Beauv.); Orchard grass (Dactylis glomerata L.); Quaking grass (Briza media L.); Canadian blue grass (Poa compressa L.); Kentucky blue grass (Poa pratensis L.); Meadow fescue (Festuca elatior L.); Reed fescue (Festuca arundinacea Schreb.); Barren brome grass (Bromus sterilis L.).
He has also shown that ergots grown on any of these grasses which have been infected by ergot of rye are in their turn capable of infecting rye and barley. This is a very important point for the agriculturist. For instance, if holy grass infected with ergot is left to mature, the ergots will drop to the ground and repeat their work in the spring. There will then be still fresh honeydew on the holy grass (which is early blooming) when the first heads of rye or barley come into bloom. The rye and barley may then be contaminated, and from them the honeydew will be borne to later-blooming fodder grasses, and so on through a continuous chain of harm.
chestofbooks.com/flora-plants/weeds/Poisonous-Plants- Canada/Ergot-Family-Hypocreaceae-Ergot -Of-Rye-Spermcedia-Claims-D-C-Fries-Cl.htmlhmmmm...this isn't pleasing me... as per tim's advice, i went out yesterday and cut off all the infected stems/seed. the only way i could tell was the giant dark seeds on the stems. i noticed immediately that the yellow jackets, ants, etc... left, so this must be doing some good. all that concerns me is if any of this fungi is still in the seeds i have gathered and will possibly plant next year, and is it still in my soil? what a pain! i planted Hulless Barley last year, but none this year. i guess i'm going to have to do a bunch of research on how to irradicate this fungi from the soil. i wonder if freezing the seed would help? what kills fungi? and how does one detect it in its first stage? there was not one bit of evidence of it in last year's crop... i am thinking of holding off on planting my trial perennial rye seed this year till i get a clear picture of what i'm dealing with here. i have several other grains i want to plant and in the garden like my perennial wheat, and i do not want them to get infected with this stuff... |
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Post by PatrickW on Aug 1, 2009 14:09:56 GMT -5
the perennial tomatilloes and cherries sound good to me too... i am surprized that there has been no discussion on my post about the Ergot fungi. does it not concern any of you that this could destroy your crop or sit in your soil to come up in other grains? if left unattended in wild areas, it could affect the natural balance of plants. the more i read, the more i need to read about it... Bunkie, you are about a year ahead of the rest of us... I worry about all infections my plants could get, but tend to pay attention to them more after I get them. Tim says this one is pretty rare. I'm glad you're posting here about it, so I can find it later if I run into it. Me, I haven't even planted the seeds I got yet. I've been so busy with other things. My climate is mild enough, I can probably plant them pretty late in the year. I'm interested in the ground cherries too. I'm growing some pretty exotic ones now from Frank, and I'm wondering if they came from Tim originally. I don't even know if what I have is perennial. I'm going to send Tim an email about this... |
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Post by bunkie on Aug 1, 2009 19:50:15 GMT -5
thanks patrick! i had several different grains to plant this year, including your Spelt, but got behind without my greenhouse, which we're starting to work on now for next year. i guess everything happens for a reason. i would've felt awful if this Ergot carried into my other grains...
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Post by silverseeds on Aug 1, 2009 22:57:39 GMT -5
In a month or two Id happily donate some money to this project for some perennial tomatillos, that is amazing. I was intending to breed alot of the wilder varieties, to get one that wasnt perennial(I had no idea it was possible) but just a really hardy one, I could grow with minimal imput. Even a few seeds, I would want. If not now maybe next fall if one of you have some to share then. Or if you ever heard of another source let me know.
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Post by atimberline on Aug 10, 2009 8:38:41 GMT -5
Bunkie, these are the only 3''types'' we got. The project was kind of vague at the beginning, not knowing the participation. In fact, you have more than 6, as Tim created pools. You do not have 3 types, you have 3 pools, many types. I think the number 6 was a guestimate by Tim, not more than that. Some seeds had to be increased to a manageable volume, that is what I understood from Tim |
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Post by Alan on Aug 11, 2009 22:51:26 GMT -5
Bunkie,
I don't worry too much about Ergot simply because I have grown rye, wheat, and many other grains here as cover crops and grain crops over the past five years and prior to that when we still farmed tobacco and still as of yet (knock on wood) have never had a problem with it, even this year, the wettest year on record for Indiana, I have seen no indication of an issue other than a scarce few seeds here and there.
I do keep my eyes open to the possiblity however.
Thank you guys for posting the pics from the e-mail which I also got and need to post to my blog.
Mine was planted on the 1'st of August and is germinating as we speak!
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Post by bunkie on Aug 13, 2009 14:18:31 GMT -5
that's great alan, but are you using it for human or animal consumption?
in reading more about it, it appears to be a problem in America's grain industry and farmers do constantly check their fields for it. the USDA allows for a very minimal percentage of it to be in the harvests.
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Post by atimberline on Aug 14, 2009 8:14:38 GMT -5
that's great alan, but are you using it for human or animal consumption? in reading more about it, it appears to be a problem in America's grain industry and farmers do constantly check their fields for it. the USDA allows for a very minimal percentage of it to be in the harvests. Bunkie There is usually little trouble with ergot ...and here are a few things to note. One of the reasons dark brown-black-blue seeded grains are disfavored is because they make it hard to sort out Ergot. Another thing to note is this there are numerous other toxic grain molds, fungii... Just try to harvest timely ASAP, harvest cleanest and then less clean after,... then hand clean out any suspicious seed. If you hand clean your grain you will never have an ergot problem |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jul 23, 2010 11:37:11 GMT -5
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'd like to hear how this project turned out.
Also, I'd like to know if there is still seed available. I'm thinking of planting some next spring. Or can the seeds be planted in the fall before winter?
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Post by bunkie on Oct 4, 2010 11:37:52 GMT -5
thanks for reviving this thread keen101! i may have some seed for you next year, it is suggested to be planted in July or August, tho, i transplanted cells i started in April and they did well...the perennial rye, that is in my experiences so far.
this is the third year our Mountaineer Perennial Rye has returned. we had a really wet and cold spring, again, and it lasted almost through July. we had very little ergot this year, even with the bad weather. the harvest was good too. this winter we have enough of the last two harvests to test hop baking bread. will let you all know the results.
i haven't any pics yet, but our perennial trial rye seed we got last year is coming up nicely. we have a row of each variety, i think there were four. there is one that shatters and is supposed to be separately planted. haven't found a spot for it yet, so it may go in the ground next year.
i also planted the first year harvest of the Ezeer Perennial Wheat. it was planted in the spring in 2008, in error, but produced an abundant crop. i saved that crop and just planted it this fall. it is coming up nicely too. the second year only 6 or 7 plants returned. this year none did. hopefully we'll keep trying to get more to return.
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Post by atimberline on Feb 14, 2011 15:52:46 GMT -5
Some notes for those of you who care.
So far I have not been able to get a dedicated piece of ground that is useable for serious breeding level research.
The land that I am using for per. grain research here is neglected bits and strips along roads and back fences... places where there is isolation for a few plants and some chance of survival.
hopefully this 'squatter -style' approach to research and breeding will not endure forever. ...but it does give me lots of insight into human and other nature. ...I am just not able to breed like I need to... and it makes it near impossible to get enough seed to spread around to any of you.
I would like to hear from any of you who grew some of my perennial material my email is: atimberline@yahoo.com. Thanks
Tim Peters
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Post by ottawagardener on Feb 14, 2011 16:26:21 GMT -5
I didn't have space last year to take part in this great project but I just wanted to say that you are welcome to use a small patch of my dirt. I suspect that is mighty inconvenient though. I wish I were able to help more.
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Post by atimberline on Feb 14, 2011 16:36:54 GMT -5
 I didn't have space to take part in this great project but I just wanted to say that you are welcome to use a small patch of my dirt. I suspect that is mighty inconvenient though. I wish I were able to help more. ...you'd have to put me up ! ... thanks for the seed you shared.
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Post by lmonty on Feb 14, 2011 17:23:55 GMT -5
Tim thanks for reviving the thread. Sorry to hear that the project is stalled due to land problems. Wished you lived around here, there's plenty of land you could use in the Ozarks.
If you do have more seed available in the future I would love to find an area and trial some for you. I have a small mixed grass mostly fescue pasture that we cut for hay in May then graze on and off after that that I would be glad to overseed some p. oat or wheat on, the concept that was described in one of the original posts.
I think the concept is really worth investigating. Here in the low rolling mountains the main cash crop is feeder beef cattle. Most pastures are not very well kept up or improved, they are usually small holdings anywhere from 20 to 400 acres. Very few are more than that, most under 120. Most cant afford to take care of pastures the way I was used to back east, and its not "the way we do it here".
But if a perennial grain could be oversown and established, one that was just early mature by the time Hay is cut and the rain could be part of the hay crop adding nutrition-that would be just awesome. Especially for small holders like me- that don't have their own tractors etc- we hand sow and hire out hay making. Even those with hay making equipment here- we dont have combines around here, so small plots of hundreds of square feet could be established for human consumption, but for animal use we would need to be able to harvest the as part of our hay crop. Hoep I'm expalinign htis well....
I also know quite a few dairy goat breeders, like me; am on a big dairy goat board- we would really like to improve our pasture area but again, very few of us have large acreage and almost none have much in the way of equipment beyond hay making. Corn we can grow by hand and with the huge price increases at the feed store- I just bought a 50 lb bag of corn chops for 8.10, in 2007 when i first moved here it was 4.35 for the same thing-many of us have been talking about ways we could improve our feeding or hay. this just might do it.
The niche market is there for perennial grains. A lot of us are in higher humidity areas where rye is a bit risky due to ergot- but oats or wheat is perfect for us. So if you do get seed in the future, please let us/me know- I'm pretty sure i can scrape up the money in the next few weeks to buy in.
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