Bean Cross

[walker]

Question, how many generations, approximate, till a P. vulgaris cross settles down? I.E. presents a stable phenotype.
In last years’ field of Black Turtle Bush beans a purple stemmed and podded, half-runner, appeared. Set aside some of them to grow out to see what they might produce. Out of some 20 or so plants I see four distinct “varieties” this year and the segregates lead me to think the pollen donor was Royalty Purple Pod, also a bush var. that I had grown near the BTBs in 2007.
I am keeping each plant separate in seed collection to focus on the more promising lines. So how long might I be at this surprise project?

[silverseeds]

Up to ten years, sometimes it is faster though, Im not sure why. In carol deppes book about breeding she says the general consensus is 8 to 10 years, but she gave examples where two or three years gave a stable variety. How short of a season is it, could you grow it out twice each year?

[grungy]

With luck probably another 5-6 years, but plant each of the 4 "varieties" apart by several feet.

[walker]

Thanks, that makes the choice to focus only on the two productive segregates and leave it at that.
The crossing populations were over 100 feet apart that year. I have seen very active bumbles in the beans many times so one cross out of 1000s of blooms ain't too bad in my book.

[grungy]

Actually it is very good as bumblers actually are one of the few types that actually can get into bean flower. I hope you will keep us up to date on your crosses.

[paquebot]

I think that you might find some purple genes in the background of all Black Turtle. I've grown that one for a number of years and there always seems to be a few plants which turn up with either stripes or totally light purple. I note that one SSE member reports his line as having purple pods. I separated the striped pod beans 2 years ago and grew them out last year. Still scratching my head as all I got were regular pods. Didn't have space to grow them this year so can't say what I might look for in the next generation other than some darned good beans.

Martin

[walker]

Aug 13, 2009 21:49:14 GMT -5 paquebot said:

I think that you might find some purple genes in the background of all Black Turtle. I've grown that one for a number of years and there always seems to be a few plants which turn up with either stripes or totally light purple.

True, I've grown these BTB every year starting in 03 purchased from Sandhill Preservation. Purple pods when dry showed up at about 15% first year. My selection pressure in favor of good plants with at least streaked purple pods has bummped that to around 1 in 3 plants. Some plants will show purple stems while growing.

I think the f2s show a cross rather than amplified traits.
Purpl stem bush, purp pods - a few
Grn stem bush, purp pods - 1
Grn stem bush, grn pods - 1
Purpl stem Pole, purp pods - Most
Grn stem Pole, grn pods - 1

The green pods are flat like a Roma II, the purple pods are shaped much like the BTB.

The dried seed from all so far are shiny black and a bit larger than the BTB, except one plant, green pod I think, showing partial deep brown on black.

[paquebot]

As you now see, there was purple in there before you bought the seeds if you had 15% purple the first year via seed from Glenn Drowns. That would not have been from any cross in your garden. And you are finding that the various traits are difficult to stabilize. In the end, all will probably revert right back to the same percentage.

There are some beans which seem to never settle down while giving different colors than what was planted. I have one which is officially a tricolor but will produce 4 different. If black beans are planted, the results are black, white, brown, or black and brown. If white are planted, it's white and brown. If brown are planted, it's either black and brown or brown. It all eventually comes back to black.

Martin

[walker]

And the pod shape and the plant habit come from?

[paquebot]

The plant habit again is in the genetic background of Black Turtle just as with many other bush beans. In fact, there are some varieties where they may be strictly a bush in one garden and a half-runner in another. One year I planted 168' of Black Turtle around the outside of a 36'x48' plot. Where they were close to tomato cages, some went up to waist level. I didn't keep a close record but think that those plants produced a lot more than the ones which were forced to remain as a bush.

But, I don't think that I recall any major differences in pod shape, only color. Thus there is no explanation for Roma II type pods. Only thing that you can do now is keep every type separate and see what you get next year.

As an aside, there is one thing that I usually do with beans and which is perhaps what one should always do. I select certain plants for my next year's seed stock. Usually they are ones which are most prolific or best represent the variety. I had one variety which produced either about 30 pods with 4 beans or 20 pods with 6 and yet the beans and plants were identical. Either way, 120 to 1 return. One year I saved only seed from plants with the 20 longer pods. Now every plant of that variety produces the long pods.

Martin

[walker]

Harvested a few more of these plants today.
A real looker showed up, one of the plants gave me purple-pastel-tan seed.
Well outside any expected black turtle, definitely a cross.
If there were any more to the pod F1 seed I ate them winter of 2007 I guess, dang.

[paquebot]

I have to correct one thing. I did plant those which came from the striped pods. The plants are still 10 days or so away from pulling for further drying but there are 2 distinct pod colors. About three-quarters are the same reddish-purple striped as the parent plants were. The remaining quarter are lilac. Of course, all will dry to nearly the same color beige or something similar and the beans will be black.

Martin

[flowerpower]

Lilac pods? That's really cool.

[paquebot]

Aug 18, 2009 6:31:23 GMT -5 flowerpower said:

Lilac pods? That's really cool.

Yes, but it changes almost daily. At peak of color, one could call it any of many purple shades and be right on any given day. But they all dry to about the same grayish-brown, unlike true purple pod peans which dry to almost black.

Martin

[flowerpower]

I wanted to grow a purple bean this yr. But the 2 I thought were purple, weren't. I have to get pics for Dave. But the "Purple" and "Super Violet" were green. lol I think "Purple" could be the Mennonite Purple Stripe. It looks very similar to them.