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Post by paquebot on Nov 11, 2010 23:23:22 GMT -5
This thread ended before anyone reported the end results. Now it's two harvests later and it has been most interesting. The off-colored pods produced 4 different colors of beans; black, pink, brown, and white with black spots. Black was normal color. Pink turned to tan when fully dry. All 4 colors were planted back and each held true. Most striking are the white with black spots. What I like about the non-black ones is that they have the Black Turtle taste without turning the food black. The speckled ones, for certain, will be in my annual seed offer on another forum so that it gets wider coverage. Still debating what to do with the black Tarheel and black Caseknife, both of which are supposed to be white seed. Both came back true but I want one more year to confirm them.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 12, 2010 7:48:24 GMT -5
You have a bean called "Black Tarheel"? Is this because it comes from North Carolina? I'd be interested in acquiring this bean if it is from here. Can you say a bit more about it? The questions I have would be:
1. Should it be planted in the spring or summer?
2. Bush or pole?
3. Better eaten dry or fresh?
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Post by paquebot on Nov 12, 2010 14:55:44 GMT -5
1. It would be planted in the spring.
2. It is a short pole bean.
3. It is a dry bean.
Actually most references call is Tar Heel and it's origins were supposedly in NC. However, it became more popular in Washington where it was planted by settlers which came from NC. It's much in demand in WA of late since it was the bean most widely grown by their ancestors.
I had no reason to add it to my huge number of bean varieties except that I friend in WA was looking for them. The only source I could locate was SSE's Heritage Farms listing in the Yearbook. Of course, only available to members. Therefore I was to buy the seeds, grow them out, and send some on to the friend. Received the minimum 25 seeds and all were white as normal. Planted them and one plant produced black seed. Black ones were planted back and produced only black seed.
Production of either color Tar Heel as a whole is not prolific. Pods are only about 5" long and contain 6 or 7 beans. The plants also barely made it to 5'. I suspect that it was probably field-grown as a half-runner for dry bean production. They would thus be planted very close for maximum production.
The black Caseknife was a different story as I have grown the proper one since around 2005 and always returned white seed. One plant produced black seed last year. With no other black varieties growing in the home garden in 2008, there is no clue as to where the black came from. The result was a much more vigorous plant and later. We were still enjoying fresh snap beans from it almost into this month. The vines were finally stripped off their tepee and yesterday and there were a number of immature pods yet. It's definitely going to get another chance next year so that I can figure out where to go with it.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 12, 2010 15:28:19 GMT -5
That's a very interesting tale. So, do you think there has been an accidental cross or that there is just black mutant in each of these varieties? A black Tar Heel would be a rather ironic variety.
I am very fond of black beans and I received some "Black Valentine" beans from someone last year. They did very well when I planted them in the spring. We didn't eat any of them as I was looking more to increase my seed. They were so successful that I planted an 80' row of them in the late summer. I lost every one thanks to the heavy rains that came with the 2nd hurricane that came by. I still have more seed to plant next spring than I had this spring though. So, hopefully we will have dry beans next winter.
I have to wonder how much impact temperature has on the various stages of growth and fruiting, particularly in terms of variance tolerance.
I would like to have some of those seed in the future if you can spare some.
Speaking of beans, I also received a Polish soup bean last year called "Piekny Jas". It was this bean in particular that has me wondering about issues of temperature and tolerance. I was given 4 seed. They had the appearance of a large, thick, white lima bean. Very pretty. Of all the beans I planted these were the last to germinate and sprout, only 2 came up and the second one died after growing about 6". The first one to sprout; however, grew very quickly and was the first to reach the trellis ahead of all the other beans and first to get to the top of the trellis as well. The flowers were white with a very delicate pink tinge at the base where the petals met the stem. There were very few flowers and only 6 pods actually formed. They were thick and very hairy. They took forever to develop and then, instead of drying, they molded. I was very disappointed to say the least, but I have to wonder if I should have planted them earlier or later, maybe pulled the pods green and left them in the window to dry? This summer was the hottest on record so I imagine that might have had something to do with it?
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Post by paquebot on Nov 12, 2010 21:18:21 GMT -5
The fact that the black seeds came true is not surprising. There some varieties which will NOT come back true and that is natural. Grandma Roberts Black pole is like that. If you plant black, you get black, brown, and white. If you plant white, you get white and brown. If you plant brown you get black or brown.
There's another that I've been having fun with, Uncle Steve's Italian pole. From the time I got the seed about 6 or 7 years ago, I knew that there was something not right. There were slight differences in the stripes on the pods and then there were slight differences in shades of bean colors. I selected the extremes and planted them. The results were some which were even more distanced. This year, one extreme was blue-green and the other brown. They don't even look closely related.
You've been thinking that I'm best known for tomatoes and garlic? I've probably got 100 or more varieties of beans!
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 13, 2010 7:16:08 GMT -5
The fact that the black seeds came true is not surprising. There some varieties which will NOT come back true and that is natural. Grandma Roberts Black pole is like that. If you plant black, you get black, brown, and white. If you plant white, you get white and brown. If you plant brown you get black or brown. There's another that I've been having fun with, Uncle Steve's Italian pole. From the time I got the seed about 6 or 7 years ago, I knew that there was something not right. There were slight differences in the stripes on the pods and then there were slight differences in shades of bean colors. I selected the extremes and planted them. The results were some which were even more distanced. This year, one extreme was blue-green and the other brown. They don't even look closely related. There was a PBS program recently where they did breeding experiments on silver fox. They were selecting for tameness. After 8 generations, the foxes were more like domestic dogs with certain "cat like" traits. They were; however, very surprised to note that the selection for tameness also brought about changes in coloration. Have you perhaps noticed other qualities in the plants that come and go with the colors? I'll feel that I've learned a little on the season that I can plant beans and observe them as something more than something to eat come winter! You've been thinking that I'm best known for tomatoes and garlic? I've probably got 100 or more varieties of beans! Martin I know you for your beets! ;D Darn fine beets too, if you ask me! I had no idea you were into garlic! Are you interested in having some seed from the 4 varieties I got from GRIN last year? IF all goes well, I'll have plenty to share of the Rojo de Cuenca, Rojo de Castro, and Aja Rodena. I'll have only 1 spare Bhsto de Chinchon, but I'd be happy to send it your way if you are interested. I'm planning on keeping 10 bulbs of each variety to plant for the 2012 harvest. |
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Post by DarJones on Nov 13, 2010 15:25:59 GMT -5
Paquebot, The Grandma Roberts Black Pole beans are definitely a tricolor variety. They do some very interesting things genetically. Still manage to be pretty good snap beans too. You can find a similar variety called Hickman Snap as well as others with the same genetic traits.
DarJones
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Post by paquebot on Nov 13, 2010 19:55:07 GMT -5
Thus far, there have been no noticeable color differences in the foliage. Several of the bean instances have shown different color or markings on the pods but otherwise identical until the pods are open. That must go back a few years for eating beets. I distributed a lot of Red Cloud sample packets around 2003 or so. Then mangel beets for a few years. Working on a new one now, Yellow Cylindra. About 25 of them are currently stored underground for replanting in the spring. Shape of regular cylindra but skin the color of Golden Eckendorf mangels. Flesh is white. I've only been growing it since either 1983 or 1984! Garlic peaked at 27 varieties 6 or 7 years ago. Gave most of them to WeGrowGarlic to about double their numbers at the time. Probably about 30 varieties in the ground here right now but most are small quantities to increase planting stock at the farm. You can check us out at www.wegrowgarlic.com May even find someone you know there! If it's not on Karen's & Mike's list of varieties on the above site, then we'd be interested. We have been known to start with a single bulb and work up to having several hundred to sell within just a few years. I'm hopeful of getting 20 Tipitilla bulbs next year from the single bulb that I started with. Martin |
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Post by paquebot on Nov 13, 2010 20:33:03 GMT -5
Paquebot, The Grandma Roberts Black Pole beans are definitely a tricolor variety. They do some very interesting things genetically. Still manage to be pretty good snap beans too. You can find a similar variety called Hickman Snap as well as others with the same genetic traits. DarJones I've only considered it as a dry bean although many of that type are excellent snaps when young. Didn't grow it this year since I only had space for about 30 pole varieties and about that many bush types. Most prolific for dry pole this year was Maria which is from Tanzania. Over a quart of dry beans from 6 plants. Njano was another Tanzanian and sprawled like a half runner. 12 seeds produced almost 2 quarts. Kitenge, on the other hand, was a big bush with beautiful beans but barely got a cup from 5 beans. All may have produced more except that they didn't arrive in the US until 27 May and then in a friend's pocket! Friesland's Krupke joined up with its fellow countryman Wâldbeantsjes but the yellow bean beat out the red one 3 to 1. I'll still give Krupke another chance to prove its worth next year. Sometimes beans are as interesting to grow as tomatoes and almost as varied. And no two years seem to give the same results. Martin |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 14, 2010 6:55:50 GMT -5
That must go back a few years for eating beets. I distributed a lot of Red Cloud sample packets around 2003 or so. Then mangel beets for a few years. Working on a new one now, Yellow Cylindra. About 25 of them are currently stored underground for replanting in the spring. Shape of regular cylindra but skin the color of Golden Eckendorf mangels. Flesh is white. You sent me a packet each of Golden Eckendorf and Red Cylindra last year. We only grew 1 row of each due to space limitations. In fact, we grew them in the plot where the garlic is now. We dug up the last of the roots to store for winter chicken food. I was going to pass on the notion of trying to get seed from them for this planting, but if I can re-plant the roots in spring, then I guess I'll have more seed! That is very good news because I really liked the greens from these beets. HA! I've been wondering if you were the Martin in the photos! If it's not on Karen's & Mike's list of varieties on the above site, then we'd be interested. None of the 4 garlics I received from GRIN are on Mike and Karen's list. I would be happy to send some along. I plan to keep 10 bulbs of each variety for seed. Except for Bhsto de Chinchon, I planted more than 20 cloves each. So, plenty of bulbs left. I only had 11 cloves of Bhsto de Chinchon, so, assuming they all come good, I'll have only 1 bulb left over. But, as you point out, that's enough to get started! I want to analyze the clove ratio for each of the varieties so that I can get an idea of approximately how many cloves I will have available to plant next year. This year, I'm filling out my rows with unknown varieties that came from planting generic garlic from the store. There was actually one very nice garlic I got from that batch. I set it aside and for lack of a better name I'm calling it "Virgin's Blush". I'm wondering if there is a way to perhaps determine it's real name? Or is that just impossible? I would also like to try and figure out the names of the 2 garlics I received from Pugs that lost their names. One the label went missing, the other was unreadable by the time it was harvested. That won't happen this year. I've used a LOT more controls to ensure that I know what is what from beginning to end. What I do need now, is to get more educated regarding the sub-types. I get the hard/soft neck issue, but I need to understand rocambole, artichoke, porcelain, Asiatic, purple stripe, silverskin, and creole attributes and how to ID one from another. |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 14, 2010 7:05:18 GMT -5
Sometimes beans are as interesting to grow as tomatoes and almost as varied. And no two years seem to give the same results. Martin You've certainly said a mouthful there! The learning curve is proving steep for me as well. Peas as well. But I think that as our understanding of what the plants need and when, along with our soil improvement program, we are slowly but surely getting to a point where we will be able to actually have worth harvests of these things. Right now I have 3 rows of field peas, dried on the vine, that we need to pick and hull for the winter. That is an achievement in my book! |
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Post by flowerpower on Nov 14, 2010 7:11:33 GMT -5
If it's not on Karen's & Mike's list of varieties on the above site, then we'd be interested. We have been known to start with a single bulb and work up to having several hundred to sell within just a few years. I'm hopeful of getting 20 Tipitilla bulbs next year from the single bulb that I started with. Martin I'm glad I grabbed that Tipitilla last fall. It was unavailable this yr. Alot of people will enjoy this variety thanks to you.  The Martin's Garlic did very well here. Thanks again. My best bulb crossed the border into Canada this summer. Turns out that you can carry them across without a problem. I'll remember to print out the We Grow Garlic offerings before I go to the garlic fests. I'll pick up varietes not on the list. Sometimes I see some interesting varieties. Anything you want, I'll happily send. What you don't, will go into the ground. Garlic is never gonna go to waste here. lol |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 14, 2010 7:27:59 GMT -5
Tipitilla - What makes this garlic special? I've only seen the name here...
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Post by paquebot on Nov 14, 2010 20:18:00 GMT -5
Tipitilla is a small artichoke type which comes from Argentina. Hence it may be quite tolerant to heat. A few little spears showing today so there's hope that I'll see bulbs next July.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 15, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
Do tell? Sounds like that should be given a shot over this way. Maybe you'll have a spare bulb to send my way in trade next year as well.
The garlic we planted on Saturday hasn't shown up yet... ;o)
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The Martin's Garlic did very well here. Thanks again. My best bulb crossed the border into Canada this summer. Turns out that you can carry them across without a problem.