Breeding maximas

[atash]

As some of you are aware, I have been concerned about the fact that food prices have been rising at double-digits for the last 3 years, and am of the opinion that they are going to rise significantly faster in years to come. The reasons are many but we don't need to go there; that's not the point of this post.

The point is that squashes are a great hard-times crop. The reason is because they "self-store". You put them on a shelf, with no processing, and they keep. No expensive "canning" (putting up in jars, actually) or freezing. No equipment needed.

And while it's sitting on that shelf, it is storing vitamin A and vitamin C. Most stored foods are deficient in C, which is how people get scurvy living off stored food.

www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2648/2

There's a good reason that the Amerinds' primary crops were maize, beans, and squashes.

I am trialing several maximas this year. I can already see that no single variety will give me everything that I want. I'm not a plant breeder so please be patient with me.

Here's an interesting PDF on the subject:

www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/cgc_reports/squash95.pdf

Disease-resistance given short-shrift. Too bad, because "reliability" is one of my top priorities. I wonder why powdery mildew resistance only ranked 19?!

Too many variables to list them all. Let's start with a few, and see where the discussion goes.

Earliness is a trait that promotes reliability, because if you can beat the clock, you can get a crop in before an early freeze, or after a late frost.

Earliness is a tradeoff between a lot of other variables. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of early squashes seem to grow on shorter vines...or in some cases "bushes".

But there seems to be a point of diminishing returns. For one thing, squash foliage goes senescent relatively fast. For another, "bush" plants don't have a lot of leaf area to feed that fruit. I also perceive that there seems to be a tradeoff between ultimate size of the plant, and overall health. Basically, vigorous plants can "outrace" a lot of problems, whereas weak growers seem to be more likely to succumb to problems. I have seen this many times, with several different crops, and I'm seeing it now as some early but slow-growing varieties are turning sickly now that the weather has turned unseasonably cool, while a later but vigorous variety looks fine.

I'm thinking that short vines, but NOT bushes, might be a good compromise between earliness and vigor.

[raymondo]

I like the maximas for storage. I started trialling them two years ago looking for early maturity and good storage, as well as good eating qualities of course. I have only trialled a few varieties as last year was a disaster for winter squash in my garden. There are so many maximas out there that trialling them may well take the rest of my life!
Interesting read in the link you gave atash. Perhaps powdery mildew was given a low priority because in many places, even though plants may eventually succumb to it, you still get a crop. That's certainly the case where I live, most years. There are some wet, cool summers that give the fungus perfect conditions and in those years you don't get fruit here.
Maximas that have done well here, though not necessarily in my garden, include Australian Butter, Queensland Blue, Jarrahdale, Triamble, Blue Hubbard (in fact most of the Hubbards seem to do well here), Red Kuri, Potimarron, Golden Nugget (the only bush type I've grown personally) and Ironbark.
I had been thinking about trying to find a good bush type (I don't particularly like Golden Nugget) or even breeding one, but your comments about plant types and sizes makes me think that a compact indeterminate type might be better.

[atash]

I am trialing several varieties this year, including an early Buttercup type (Bitterroot Buttercup named for the Bitterroot valley in Montana where it was bred), Uncle David's Dakota Dessert which reputedly is highly productive, very sweet, and has a small seed cavity, and Golden Nugget which you are already familiar with.

I already knew that Golden Nugget did not rate well for flavor, because I'd read its ratings at a Cornell website where home growers rate varieties. It has some other merits I thought were worthwhile enough to trial it even if it is not a particularly good one for flavor (Uncle David's Dakota Dessert tied for first place). For one thing, although I have concerns about "bush" varieties, some people won't grow a squash otherwise. So, they have their niche in the market.

Would you like some seed? I have plenty of the Uncle David's.

It might be possible to set up a joint project. We're on opposite hemisphere's so we could potentially breed something twice as fast if only harvesting a bit early and shipping seed promptly.

My priorities include dependability, tolerance of less-than-ideal conditions, "reasonable" earliness (not to sacrifice other qualities, just to reduce risk of no ripe fruit at end of growing season), storage, and dry, smooth, sweet, well-colored flesh. I like fruit that is neither so big that storing the cut unused portions turns into a problem, or so small it doesn't keep well. 2-3 generous servings is about right, and you can always just serve several for a crowd.

I like squashes that are "pretty", but I'm wondering if plain green has some advantages: would the fruit itself help ripen itself, if its shell contributes in some small way to photosynthesis? Just a thought. Hey, there are orchids that photosynthesize solely through their roots, so presumably green fruits do something...

Powdery mildew CAN kill. Interestingly, I have seen it strike down specific varieties and leave others alone. Delicatas are notoriously susceptible, including and especially "Cornell's Bush Delicata", despite being advertised as being highly mildew resistant. Not only did it die, it was the ONLY squash that got, and died of, powdery mildew in my garden!

[Hristo]

This year I'm trialing about 40 maximas, some of them I already had grown past years. I'm doing some breeding too, but my only priority is taste. The powdery mildew very rarely is fatal here.

Of the varieties I'm familiar with I think 'Jdana' could be useful for you as donor. Check my seedlist for description and photo (I can't add here a hotlink to that host). Also I suppose you have checked the sandhill catalog, if not check it, it's worth the time:

www.sandhillpreservation.com/catalog/squash.html

Good luck with your project. I suppose it's not as easy to breed early variety with dry and sweet flesh.

BTW few years ago I got from Sand Hill and planted some seeds of Gold Nugged squash. Planted them in late June, so I harvested only 1 or 2 ripe fruits, but they were very tasty (after few months of storage). This year I planted it again. If it's as good again I will know that that taste was not just exception. (I'm very hard to please when we talking about squash taste)

[raymondo]

Very generous offer of seeds atash. I've sent a pm.

I'm happy to share a project, but let me describe my growing conditions in case either weather or timing doesn't suit.

Average relative humidity is around 50%, average rainfall is 800mm, most of it in the summer months, average summer maximum temperature is 26°C, average winter minimum is 0°C, though being at 1000m above sea level means we get some wild swings at times. We have about 150 frost free days. Frost sensitive crops are planted out in early November. Winter squash (pumpkins to an Australian) are harvested in April, or May if the weather is kind. My soil is heavy clay which I keep well mulched in summer but bare in winter to reduce slug numbers. I use sheep manure a lot as I can get it easily and cheaply. And lastly, I prefer to sow direct.
The summer rainfall can sometimes cause a problem. Last season for example I lost most of my tomatoes because my garden was literally under water for over a week. The maximas didn't like it either but the moschatas seemed to enjoy it.
My interest in pumpkins: fibre-free, sweet, dry, dense flesh and plenty of it (read small seed cavity); reasonable productivity; reasonable earliness; excellent storage; medium-sized plant and fruit; vigorous early growth to beat the slugs. I would love it if the flesh were a deep orange but I can live with any colour really if the other criteria are satisfied.
So, there it is. If the timing works and the weather isn't too different to yours, I'd be happy to help develop a variety that suits us both.

Where does your seed list lurk Hristo?

[Hristo]

Ray, click the homepage link under the avatar, or:
seedswap.freehostia.com/

[atash]

I suppose it's not as easy to breed early variety with dry and sweet flesh.

Hristo, I am trialing some early maximas this year, but I have grown some amazing pepos that have excellent flesh other than not colored as well as I would have liked. I see that you trialed one of them yourself, 'Sugar Loaf". My kids just loved that one. It is so sweet I only added 1/4 cup sugar to make pies out of it, and that was more than enough (I don't like pumpkin pie too sweet anyway...).

Amazing that modestly-sized plants could make fruit that sweet, and ripen pretty promptly.

I'll start a different thread for a topic that might be close to your heart.

[Hristo]

Yes, Sugarloaf along with Gill's Golden Pippin are the best tasting pepos I have (I still can't get a crop of supposedly delicious Honeyboat). But they are so small and are the most unreliable squashes I have. They are quite susceptible to the disease present here. Last 3 years I got only one crop of them.

BTW what is your understanding for "dry flesh"? Under dry flesh I imagine the really dry and flaky (as chestnut) eastern varieties (kabocha) that you can eat along with the rind. For me the hubbards are moist, Sweet Meat is creamy (between dry and moist) and only some of the kabochas I call dry-fleshed.

[atash]

Good question. I want flesh that does not fall apart when cooked, like a great many squashes do. In fact it should be somewhat firm. But not "flaky". Smooth. Sort of like a German salad potato, but even more so.

I thought about the comparison with chestnuts but there is a problem with answering the question: they vary in moistness themselves! Some are too dry and flaky, and some are smooth and moist--but not weepy. The moister side of the gamut would be just about right for a squash. Bear in mind that you probably get European chestnuts and I get mostly Chinese.

Squashes should "weep" only minimally when baked. I don't like it when I bake one and it is all shriveled up and floating in a pool of liquid before it's done!

I am probably reacting more AWAY from something than towards. Some squashes--and sweet potatoes too for that matter--are at the same time watery, yet also unpleasantly fibrous. They fall apart when you cook them, weep, and are full of stringy fiber.

Some squashes intentionally quite moist, like many French varieties. I think they make cream soups out of them. I eat them plain, or baked into pastries, so they need to be drier.

In my climate, Sugar Lump and Honeyboat perform and taste identical. Only difference I notice is the shape. We probably have different diseases. Here, standard Delicatas are impossible because they die of Powdery Mildew. Sugar Lump and Honeyboat are both resistant enough that I have no problem getting a crop.

You're right, they are small. There are always trade-offs for earliness, size of the vines, size of the fruit, etc. I think I only got about 4 small fruit per modest-size vine, but they did ripen easily, and were very sweet. Despite their modest size and the fact that they are pepos, I was able to keep them intact until late February which is not bad.

If I were going to improve them, I'd want deeper-colored flesh, prettier shells (off-white with deep green speckled stripes in the folds, and maybe even some golden yellow speckles too), and a more classic "pumpkin" shape, not sausage-shaped or egg-shaped.

[galina]

I read 'Seattle' in the North and wondered whether such a squash would perform the same every year. Here in central England (more northern still) I can end up with 5 winter squash fruits from 20 plus plants or with 65 and it pretty much depends on the type of summer we are having. If I could grow 30 every year reliably , I would be happy, but some years it just does not work out.

The usual 'early' ones do perform better and with more fruit, but honestly one fruit from an Amish Pie (for example) is still much larger and more food value than 2 fruits from a buttercup plant. I just happen to love buttercup and will always grow them because of that, irrespective of the food to foliage value.

I think you could go down two separate routes. Firstly grow as many likely candidates as you can find, study them carefully, and select down to just a few cultivars that you will grow every year. Alternatively, let all likely candidates with the right attributes between them cross naturally, and 'go with the flow' to breed your own. Anything good in further generations could become a seed parent for your own adapted maxima. Choose the earliest fruit from one plant, a second fruit from the least mildew troubled type and finally a third from the nicest tasting. Next year carry on with these that were chosen because of their traits. They will cross with each other again. After several generations, I hope your 'house variety' that is uniquely adapted to your conditions will emerge and with all the traits you desire.

This is pretty much how Glenn Drowns created his own very early water melon, Blacktail mountain.

[klorentz]

Hi atash,

One winter squash that earned a forever spot in my garden is the Kobacha.This one has great flavor. Will have some maxima's out there too. Three French pumpkins and some pepo. I am just amazed at how healthy they all are. Certainly something to think about. Also growing Black Futsu.


Kevin

[atash]

Galina, you're right, it wouldn't perform the same every year which is why earliness is important.

This year for all intents and purposes we have had virtually no spring, and summer is threatening to cancel as well. Yesterday was warm but today is back to very autumnal weather.

Nevertheless, most of my tomatoes are doing fine, because I selected most of them for reliability despite cool summers. Most of them are determinates, and have flowers with short pollen tubes, which means they pollinate more easily. Tomato pollination is temperature-dependent.

Some of them are probably "parthenocarpic", meaning they will set fruit even if it is too cold for them to self-pollinate at all. Problem is, then it doesn't have any seeds. Usually though, it's just the first few tomatoes and the rest end up with seeds I can use for next year.

They were bred in: Sweden (Glacier and Imur Prior Beta), Oregon/Idaho/Yukon (Forest Fire, derived from "Sub Arctic Plenty" crossed with "a beefsteak" to get its ancestor "Prairie Fire", then I don't know what Tim Peters did with it), Alaska (Polar Star), Canada (Manitoba and Coldset), Russia (Silvery Fir Tree), and locally (Seattle's Best of All). I have a few others bred by German immigrants in Appalachia, that I'm using for their "fruity" flavor and sweetness (this will have to be compromised for earliness) for breeding.

These tomatoes ripen every year, even in our worst. It is more important for them to be reliable, than to give me a significantly bigger crop in "good years". A few of them are indeterminates (eg, Glacier) and will simply bear more fruit in good years. The rest can be followed up by autumn/winter crops if they ripen early.

Similarly with the squashes, I am using fast ripeners bred in places like Montana and North Dakota. Interestingly, their vigor has been good despite the cold weather; they are still growing.

The problem with bigger, fewer fruits is that you run the risk of not getting it fully ripe at all. I've already experienced that trouble from some breeds. I'd rather have smaller, earlier fruit. I'd rather deal with the "worst case scenario" first.

There is also the question of how much of the fruit is easily useable. Some squashes not only have a large seed cavity, but a certain amount of pithy fiber that has to be cleaned off the fruit as well, and some gets lost stuck in on the shell. Other squashes have smaller, off-center seed cavities and less fiber, so a high fraction of the fruit is fully useable. That's one way to compensate for smaller fruit.

BTW, the end result of my amateur breeding efforts are not just for my own benefit. I think others will appreciate the merits of reliability as food prices keep going up, and the solar minimum continues for another 20-some years.

Thanks for the recommendations, Kevin.

[extremegardener]

I like c. maxima Sibley (aka Pike's Peak), an old Blue Hubbard strain from Colorado. Fruits mid to large size (I would prefer them smaller), dry flesh, superb flavor, and the best keepers I've ever seen - had two that actually kept over into a second winter and were still good eating. I can only grow early stuff here - we're very cold and wet.

re Honeyboat These are our primary reliable winter pepo. We are still eating and enjoying them now.

[galina]

Jun 6, 2010 13:36:07 GMT -5 atash said:

Galina, you're right, it wouldn't perform the same every year which is why earliness is important.

Nevertheless, most of my tomatoes are doing fine, because I selected most of them for reliability despite cool summers. .

Some of them are probably "parthenocarpic", meaning they will set fruit even if it is too cold for them to self-pollinate at all. Problem is, then it doesn't have any seeds. Usually though, it's just the first few tomatoes and the rest end up with seeds I can use for next year.

They were bred in: Sweden (Glacier and Imur Prior Beta), Oregon/Idaho/Yukon (Forest Fire, derived from "Sub Arctic Plenty" crossed with "a beefsteak" to get its ancestor "Prairie Fire", then I don't know what Tim Peters did with it), Alaska (Polar Star), Canada (Manitoba and Coldset), Russia (Silvery Fir Tree), and locally (Seattle's Best of All).

These tomatoes ripen every year, even in our worst. It is more important for them to be reliable, than to give me a significantly bigger crop in "good years". Similarly with the squashes, I am using fast ripeners bred in places like Montana and North Dakota. Interestingly, their vigor has been good despite the cold weather; they are still growing.

There is also the question of how much of the fruit is easily useable. Some squashes not only have a large seed cavity, but a certain amount of pithy fiber that has to be cleaned off the fruit as well, and some gets lost stuck in on the shell. Other squashes have smaller, off-center seed cavities and less fiber, so a high fraction of the fruit is fully useable. That's one way to compensate for smaller fruit.

BTW, the end result of my amateur breeding efforts are not just for my own benefit. I think others will appreciate the merits of reliability as food prices keep going up.

Indeed, such a maxima will be potentially appreciated by a very large group of cold summer gardeners, Joseph.

Here are my best performing c maxima: Buttercup Burgess, Uchiki Kuri, Sibley (you may not like them because of their larger than average seed cavity), a 'Kapocha' type squash (possibly a hybrid, plants were variable), Queensland Blue, Australian Butter, Jarrahdale and Whangaparoa Crown (aka Crown Prince) from Australia and New Zealand. Dense-fleshed Flat White Boer from South Africa. The hubbards and bananas are very poor some years and want more heat. Amish Pie I have grown once only and loved its flavour, similarly Sweet Meat - not sure how well either perform in a really awful summer.

Tomatoes that usually, but not always, produce outdoors (I grow most of my tomatoes under cover): De Barao, Early Tanana, Galina's, Glacier, Siberia, Sub-Arctic 25, Bloody Butcher, Brown Berry, Matina (aka Tamina), Latah, Giant German cherry, Stupendous, Whippersnapper, Silvery Fir Tree and Tim Peter's Fruity Yellow (which is red, tastes delicious and amazingly can recover from some strains of late blight up to a point). Stupice is one that many gardeners rave about for real good flavour and earliness, but I can't get it to perform here. Sorry for the side-track to tomatoes, but I really appreciated reading and comparing notes on suitable varieties for more difficult growing conditions.

Looking forward to hearing more about your breeding progress.

[atash]

Extremegardener: Mountaineer might perform well for you. It's a short-season Hubbard type, that was bred in Montana I think it was. It is one of the few maxima types that performs well in the Rocky Mountains. The fruit is a little smaller than other Hubbard types, which is actually advantageous as Hubbards make a fruit whose leftovers get awkward to stuff into the refrigerator if you don't have a big enough dinner crowd to eat the whole thing.