Breeding maximas

[jondear]

I probably will do a few crosses ray, but the bees will be doing most of the work.

In my home garden, for the last few years, winter squash and melons have been my most perplexing weed. The seed gets put in my compost, survived the winter, gets walk upon, rototilled into rows and comes up when its ready. Some from great depths. Maybe I should just put all my seed through the compost pile and save many steps of after ripening, drying, labeling, storing and planting.

[jondear]

At least one f2 sunshine still has the precocious yellow gene. Since none of the others were in flower, I hit it with pollen from sweet mama which have really taken off. I'm really having fun with this

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I was inspired by this thread when it was originally made. It has lead to the creation of this variety. It started out in the 2010 growing season as a bee-made cross between Buttercup and a red-kuri type from the grocery store. I really liked the orange color on the fruits so I have been selecting since then for buttercup shape and small mostly orange fruits. The vines are already dying a few weeks before fall frost is expected, so I started harvesting the fruit at 80 days. If I had actually took it out of the truck last week it would have been the first winter squash at my farmer's market. The fruits are small, about 2 to 3 pounds.

[flowerweaver]

Lovely!

[flowerweaver]

Joseph Lofthouse were the bee-crossed seeds saved from the Buttercup or the Kuri?

In crossing two squashes (I have some mixta in mind), where one was tasty and the other lovely in shape and color but not very tasty...does it matter which is the pollen donor and which one bears the fruit?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

flowerweaver:

I saved seed originally from the buttercup. The Line has always been mostly buttercup with a few percent of Red Kuri genetics. I routinely save seeds from fruits that conform to the buttercup shape, texture, and taste. I let the color vary with slight favor shown to plants that have some red coloration. And I am tending towards selecting against large cups... Because they don't seem to store as well. The color came in through pollen from plants that were otherwise culled. That makes the genetics of the plants more than 75% buttercup, so I haven't had to deal with a lot of off-types during segregation. I cull the off-types after they may have already contributed some pollen to the patch.

As far as the nuclear DNA goes, it doesn't matter which parent is the pollen donor and which is the mother... However, the organelle DNA is passed on only through the mother. It does not change from generation to generation. In corn, I tend to use the wilder parent as the mother, in order to favor diversity of organelle DNA instead of highly inbred DNA from a commercial line. If the cross was made both ways, then both sets of organelle-DNA would be conserved in the offspring.

[Carol Deppe]

Joseph, as you suspected might be so, in my experience no bush variety has full flavor. Half-bush types, that is, hybrids heterozygous for the bush gene, though, can be full flavored. Sunshine F1 is full flavored, though a bit moister than some, and it normally does not keep beyond February. However, it is very early, and can actually produce a crop on limited water. In trials of squash under conditions of marginal fertility, weed competition, and only a few buckets of water hand delivered during the season, Nate France and I found that only two varieties performed well enough to be worth growing. And earliness was doubtless part of the picture. Earliness here in Willamette Valley Oregon means that the unirrigated squash gets further before the residual moisture from winter rains runs out. The two squashes that were successful were Sunshine F1 hybrid and Katy Stokes Sugar Meat (available from Nichols Garden Nursery). Sunshine is bright orange-red and about 5 lbs. KSSM is slate gray and about 12 lbs, and is a vine type. It's become popular with market growers here, who often mislabel it "Sweet Meat," as that is a popular name here. It's a size that is easier to sell in markets that real Sweet Meat.

For a dynamite maximally resilient early variety I would cross the two, throw away the half the progeny that are semibushes, and develop a landrace from the rest.

I'm doing a project that is related. I love my reselected line of Sweet Meat, 'Sweet Meat--Oregon Homestead', but it has to be well-grown to mature or to taste good. (Katy Stokes Sugar Meat tastes great even when poorly grown, as does Sunshine F1). I'd like something shorter season and more resilient. I'd also like multiple colors in one variety, as it is just more visually delightful. So I crossed 'Sweet Meat--Oregon Homestead' to 'Sunshine F1', threw away the semibush types in the progeny, and went on from there. (Sunshine F1 is homozygous for red but heterozygous for bush, so you get speckled colored squash, from the cross, and half are semibush (heterozygous for bush)). Next round, I'll just leave everything intact until it's time to plant and throw away squash as they deteriorate to get selection for the good keeping characteristic of the Sweet Meat. Etc. I prefer the up-to-25lb. SM-OH size, but I'd like a new earlier multiple-color variety too, and am willing to sacrifice some size for it. If I can end up with a variety that averages 10-15 lbs. I'll be happy.

In my experience Gold Nugget doesn't measure up in flavor to the varieties I like, and it keeps very poorly. It is early though.

[Carol Deppe]

Whoops. I should have been replying to atash, not joseph.
Carol

[Carol Deppe]

atash, about powdery mildew and the Cornell varieties touted as resistant to it...not here in Willamette Valley Oregon they aren't. They are affected just as badly as other varieties and die just as fast. Powdery mildew resistance is to particular lines of powdery mildew, and different regions have different lines. I've talked with a C.R. Lawn, who gardens in Massachusetts and is associated with Fedco Seeds. He says they do seem to see the Cornell PM resistant line having some effect, that is, they may be affected a little later and die a little slower. But apparently at best we're talking about a week or two difference. However, that can matter enough to some New England growers to make growing the varieties worth their while.

Cornell Bush delicata at this point has really deteriorated and is very variable in quality compared with when it was first released. And was never as flavorful or fine-grained as 'Sugar Loaf' when it was at it's best.

[Carol Deppe]

Alan, people can by my reselected line of Sweet Meat, 'Sweet Meat--Oregon Homestead' from my own Fertile Valley Seeds or from Nichols Garden Nursery, Adaptive Seeds, or Bountiful Gardens. I reselected for the classic farm homestead type common 30 years ago after the commercial trade screwed up the line. SW-OH has very dry flesh, intense flavor, excellent keeping ability, size up to 25 lbs., small seed cavity, and huge seeds that are especially tasty, and that germinate well in cold mud. It's very vigorous and productive. However, it takes our full growing season. And it doesn't perform well in poor soil or on limited water. It is only worth growing if it is well-grown.

[jondear]

some of my breeding material

working the blossoms

[raymondo]

Nice looking plant in the first picture jondear.

I grew Sunshine F1 last season with a view to dehybridizing it. I was pleased with the productivity, 18 fruits off four plants, the size was just right and both flavour and texture were good. Unfortunately the flesh wasn't thick enough with a very poor flesh to seed cavity ratio and, most disappointing of all, not one kept till spring. I'll grow the F2 seed next season and see how they fare but keeping quality is as important as flavour and texture to me so if the F2 fruits keep as poorly as the F1 fruits then that's the end of the line for this squash in my garden.

[jondear]

I'm planning on using quite a few seeds from that plant in next years planting Ray. Seems like a useful trait.

Of the f2 Sunshine's I grew this year, a few were too moist for my liking so no seeds were saved. Last night I cooked up one that still retained dry, sweet, bright orange flesh.

As far as keeping quality goes, for me at least, I'd rather eat or cook and freeze the squash before the dry matter gets too low. I hate watery squash. I would prefer a squash that I could wet up by adding butter and milk if need be.

[jondear]

I've pretty much narrowed down to which squash will be planted next year. I've cooked some of the selected squash I had set aside as possible candidates.

The eating quality of Special Export f1 was first rate. Probably the driest squash I've ever eaten. The flesh was thick as well. I wouldn't rate it very sweet, but sweet enough with great squash flavor. I would grow it again.

Descendants of Sweet Mama were also excellent. One from the plant with multiple vines that I've cooked was very acceptable in terms of flavor, texture and size. I also did end up with one plant that had a small cup like burgess, the color of the flesh was darker orange than the others. It had a nice silky yet dry texture and good sweetness.

I've saved seed from some of the others but I think I'll only plant seed next spring from the three squash listed above. If I could get the good attributes combined into one squash I'd be awfully tickled. But having said that, there wasn't one squash I've cooked so far that wasn't plenty acceptable. I'm just being very picky about what qualities are important to me in a squash. I'd like to think that after a few more years of selection, I can call this project my own.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Yesterday I needed more room in the seed room, so I composted this winter squash which was harvested about 440 days ago. I ate some of it. There was no sign of mildew or rotting. My tongue didn't taste any sweetness.



Edit: p.s. Most of my gardening involves use of my arms for things like weeding, picking, carrying, cultivating, moving irrigation pipe, etc... I forget how buff that keeps my chest and arms.