Breeding maximas

[atash]

>>Sorry for the side-track to tomatoes

I'm the one who started getting sidetracked, LOL. I know more about tomato adaptations to short-season and cool-summer climates than I do about squashes, so I was using them as comparison.

Thanks for the mention of Fruity Yellow. That one sounds very interesting.

I don't think I will have any squash seed ready next year so I should probably just concentrate on breeding efforts for now. This will be a hard year for squash but at least my choices will get a challenging trial.

[pierre]

Breeding moschatas

Off topic but not so much...
After collecting many pumpkins, a few years ago I considered breeding one for me.

Flesh quality, smaller sigle service (1-2Kg) fruit, desease resistance, earliness, long keeping, compact vines were determinants.

Best flesh quality here, french Riviera, is from moschata Musquée de Provence: pearless fiberfree dry orange flesh. Not as sweet as some pepos but I rather dislike these: too sweet and not that good. Other wanted features I found with Butternuts. Tozer bred some for english climate and extra earliness. Extra ealiness here provide the possibility of a second frui set.

F1 is fine, size OK. Plant size is reduced.
And as I do not care for uniformity: F2 and F3 shape variable: pear to globe.
Quality good to very good strongly influenced by maturity.

Now I am trying to select and/or incorporate smaller seed cavity as well as more diversity, may be from Tetsukabuto...

[Hristo]

Interesting description of your Musquée de Provence! Originally the seeds of mine were commercial seeds from Vilmorin. Mine is very good raw (among the very best), but when baked/steamed it's quite mediocre - fibrous and very watery. The fruits are very heavy for their size (up to 20-25 kg.). Probably there are quite different strains.

P. S. Welcome to the forum!

[pierre]

Vilmorin is a very dependable source. I do not know of different strains. Commercial seeds of old vars are maintained and usually true to type. Alternative sources are less dependable. My guess is your MDP was not ripe enough.
In France, at places where one can grow it (it is too late maturing for short seasons) very few other pumpkins are considered.
You know why I am reducing it ;-)

[pierre]

"gopher"?

[Hristo]

If everything is OK, I will try it this year again. Last time I tasted it was in 2004. Of 50+ squash varieties I have this is the latest, but it still ripens here - the rind becomes nearly dark brown. But I'm not big moschata fan because the musky flavour most varieties has. You are mentioning determinate plant. Is this one of your breeding goals? Which butternut variety you are using? Bush Butternut? I like it. Mine is semi-detedminate, can reach 1.5-2 m. I have one chinese variety U-Man #4, which is trully determinate - small compact plant that has no vine at all.

[flowerpower]

Jul 21, 2010 5:29:32 GMT -5 Hristo said:

Bush Butternut? I like it. Mine is semi-detedminate, can reach 1.5-2 m. I have one chinese variety U-Man #4, which is trully determinate - small compact plant that has no vine at all.

How many fruit do you get per plant on the bush Butternut?

[Alan]

Jun 6, 2010 11:35:15 GMT -5 galina said:

I think you could go down two separate routes. Firstly grow as many likely candidates as you can find, study them carefully, and select down to just a few cultivars that you will grow every year. Alternatively, let all likely candidates with the right attributes between them cross naturally, and 'go with the flow' to breed your own. Anything good in further generations could become a seed parent for your own adapted maxima. Choose the earliest fruit from one plant, a second fruit from the least mildew troubled type and finally a third from the nicest tasting. Next year carry on with these that were chosen because of their traits. They will cross with each other again. After several generations, I hope your 'house variety' that is uniquely adapted to your conditions will emerge and with all the traits you desire.

This is pretty much how Glenn Drowns created his own very early water melon, Blacktail mountain.

Here in the Ohio Valley Maximas don't do well at all with powdery mildew and early heavy rain and late hot drought nearly always being fatal.

I used mass crossing in selecting hubbards, but still I am not happy. The performance is still bad. I love the taste and texture of most Maximas over all others, particularly hubbard, but the quicker the foliage starts to die back the quicker the taste begins to deterriorate as the sugar conversion never really gets a chance to "kick off" in the developing fruit. I have now mostly abandond my hubbard squashes. They are in the field now, but I am unhappy enough with them not to even bother anymore.

What I have found though is that "sweet meat" seems to do well for me, we grew it four years ago, four strains worth of it, and discovered that the diversity within type is often more apparent than between types. I've been selecting for productivity, taste, and texture.

Atash, if you can find it, seek out the "oregon sweet meat" that Carol Deppe bred, give it a go, and if you like it I would reccomend using it for a base in a breeding project.

Also, never forget that often times breeding doesn't need to include crosses, only selections within a population. I know I'm guilty of trying to recreate the wheel sometimes, but I'm learning, the hard way sometimes.

[Hristo]

Averagely 6-7, between 0.8-1.5 kg. each.

[pierre]

"musky flavour" ??...that's the other pumpkins fhat are not tasty enough ;-). When leather brown MdP may need some time more to be fully mature. As earlier quoted: that quality is strongly influenced by maturity (and health) makes not so easy to select in a diverse pumpkin population.

Yes it is Bush Butternut I used. Recently I heard of earlier Tozer bred hybrids selected for english conditions I could not get to date.

I am looking for short internodes, not determinate as here I would like a second fruit load.

For curiosity I would like to see this U-Man #4.

[Hristo]

Jul 21, 2010 9:22:01 GMT -5 Alan said:

I used mass crossing in selecting hubbards, but still I am not happy. The performance is still bad.

Hmm, which generation is this? Did you did controled crosses at some stage or only open pollinations? How many varieties you started with?

Jul 22, 2010 4:12:16 GMT -5 pierre said:

"musky flavour" ??...that's the other pumpkins fhat are not tasty enough ;-).

Well, this is a matter of personal preferences, but I definitely would not call most kabochas, hubbards and some pepos "not tasty enough". This musky aroma and flavour reminds me of one local dishwashing liquid and that doesn't act well to my appetite . So you prefer MdP over lets say Potimarron?

Here is one U-Man#4 plant:

[pierre]

That U-Man#4 is a nice plant. Is it determinate or has very short internodes?

Dishwashing liquid flavour is not apreciated here neither. Your MdP was definitely not ripe enough.

MdP and Potimarron are not comparable in my opinion. One can have a preference but for me they are too different. And yes I prefer MdP over Potimarron. Both available in the trade here. Even with heavy hype, sales are less than one percent Potimaron compared to MdP. Butternuts that were barely findable twenty years ago are now every where.

If after ripening or suncuring is not involved it may be that we were used to moschatas in childhood or that our culinary skills suit it better.

[Hristo]

Very interesting, I'm really surprised! I suppose that baking/steaming is not your main way to prepare squashes? Here too Butternuts are in increased supply, but for me the main reason for that is the price - moschatas yield is higher and respectively their price is lower. In the super and hyper stores you can see only butternuts.

The u-man4's vine reaches at most 20-25 cm. If you want some seeds PM me your address.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

My taste preference for winter squash is:

First: Moschata
Distant second: Maxima
Barely makes the list: Pepo

If I were breeding Maxima, the first thing I would have to do is breed some horizontal resistance into the gene pool. In my garden they seem to be susceptible to all kinds of insects and micro-organisms. I certainly have the space, but not much interest. For now I am paying attention to breeding Moschatas (butternut).

Regards,
Joseph

[raymondo]

Jul 26, 2010 4:28:13 GMT -5 pierre said:

If after ripening or suncuring is not involved it may be that we were used to moschatas in childhood or that our culinary skills suit it better.

Different strokes for different folks! Here, it was maximas that dominated historically, with the notable exception of one moschata called Gramma, which was used for pies. The most popular maximas were Jarrahdale and Queensland Blue, with Triamble and Iron Bark bringing up the rear. That was before the supermarket.
Nowadays, moschatas are everywhere, dominating supermarket shelves. The most common cultivars are Jap and Butternut with maximas making only an occasional appearance.
Maximas are still popular in the home garden, especially the good keepers. My favourite is Australian Butter, even though it's a little too big.