Cheapskate SSE Seed Listers

[steev]

If I recall correctly, those who were complaining about cost were referring to independent listers, not SSE's charges and packaging.

[oxbowfarm]

Apr 12, 2013 11:29:07 GMT -5 paquebot said:

It seems that the current problem boils down to lack of funds.

It seems to me that the current problem boils down to a reallocation of funds. Combine this with the total lack of transparency and top-down management culture of SSE created by Kent Whealy.

Glen Drowns and Will Bonsall withdraw from the SSE and the official response is total silence? That is not consistent with a purely financial problem.

Apr 12, 2013 11:29:07 GMT -5 paquebot said:

Wasn't too long ago that certain members of this forum were calling for a boycott of SSE and discontinuing membership. There are also those who claim that everything SSE sells is too high. Then they all fault SSE for not having the funds to continue a project. Sort of like shooting oneself in the foot and shows that their first campaign was a success. If you campaign for the death of something, it's hard to justify complaining about its death.

Martin

There were lots of folks all over the internet calling for a SSE boycott immediately following Kent Whealy's letter writing campaign. That died down once things settled out, here on HG and everywhere else.

I do think the suggested prices are too high and fault SSE for not doing more to explain to members that they can charge what they want. I don't fault SSE for needing those funds for the operations at the home farm, although clearly Mr. Bonsall and Mr. Drowns manage to do more with less. I doubt their places are as beautifully landscaped, probably not fit for a visit from the POTUS.

I haven't seen anyone here campaigning for the death of the SSE, I see no harm in another organization cropping up with a renewed vision for genetic preservation of our agricultural heritage. I also see zero evidence that SSE is in its death throes.

I'm excited to see what this new effort becomes, I'd say a little competition for SSE would be healthy.

[paquebot]

Apr 12, 2013 13:06:20 GMT -5 steev said:

If I recall correctly, those who were complaining about cost were referring to independent listers, not SSE's charges and packaging.

No, there were complaints about IA SSE HF not giving breaks on pricing. SSE is a lister just like any other member.

Martin

[paquebot]

Apr 12, 2013 17:13:35 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

There were lots of folks all over the internet calling for a SSE boycott immediately following Kent Whealy's letter writing campaign. That died down once things settled out, here on HG and everywhere else.

That may have died down but it did not bring back the members who failed to renew their membership. That lost money doesn't return just because the boycott ended. It ended because it was a success and hit SSE right where it hurt, the bank. Now there's moaning that there isn't enough money to take on new projects and SSE is somehow at fault. As much as I hate to say it, since I personally met some of the family, Kent Whealy can take much of the blame for it. How many thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of dollars have not been available to SSE because of his negative campaigning? SSE is just like any other business, there is no law that it must operate at a loss. Corporations cut or eliminate losing products irregardless of what a tiny minority may like. If it comes down to having to turn off a freezer and lose everything in it because the electric can't be paid, it ain't the fault of the person pulling the plug. It's the fault of those who were supposed to pay the bill. I'm doing my part to assure that there is money to pay it. If it's not enough, at least I tried.

Martin

[steev]

Sorry, Dude, that's just sad. Sometimes beautiful visions are overblown, overspent, and over-milked.

My membership is paid through 2014, but I didn't list this year. I'm growing peppers and popcorn for SSE, but not listing. Too G-rated, too authoritarian; too not-me. Be well.

[steev]

Having read back through this thread, I have found no complaints about SSE not giving breaks on pricing. Further, unlike listed members, SSE sends a very nice, glossy (one might suppose expensive) catalog. Again, I do not fault SSE, as a commercial enterprise (I believe you have made the point that that is what SSE is, on their forum), both retail and wholesale (if I remember correctly what you posted), but why people on this non-commercial forum should give a husky fuck whether some corporate seed enterprise (even though it be sold in folksy propaganda) sinks or swims, is beyond me.

[paquebot]

If we should not worry about if one part of SSE is successful, then there should be no concern about any other part. If one collapses, the other will also fall. The present concern is that a figure of $30,000 to $40,000 has been mentioned as needing to save Bonsall's holdings. If the boycott cost SSE only 1,000 regular members at $40 each, there's $40,000 which they don't have. Since that was several years ago, those 1,000 would mean $80,000 to $120,000 which would have been available and more than cover everything that both Bonsall and Drowns hold.

Another point is that some want to see another company or organization to compete with SSE? If there is not enough money to support all the important programs of SSE now, is there going to be enough to support a second company? I don't think that there is. Such ideas look good on paper but that's all.

Like it or not, one thing applies here. "If one is not part of the solution, he is part of the problem."

Martin

[oxbowfarm]

I've seen no mention in any public statement by SSE that they are short of funds. Where are you arriving at the conclusion that this is a financial problem?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I used the wayback machine to look up data for SSE membership. It looks like listed members (those offering seeds) has declined by 15% since 2007. Total membership has almost doubled. So it has become more like a retail operation and less like growers sharing seed with each other. The number of unique varieties offered has declined by 16% since its peak in 2011.

It looks like the biggest loss of membership and listed members (15%) occurred between 2007 and 2008, I suspect due to the fracas over donating to the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. The membership recovered and grew robustly, but the listed members continues to decline since then. [Paquebot: that estimate of 1000 members lost was spot on.] No way to tell if the boycotters returned, of if these are new members. The publicity surrounding the boycott seems to have been good for the corporation side of SSE, but bad for the cooperative organization side. Almost 2000 varieties were lost from the catalog.

I inquired one time about participating in the SSE, but the curator who replied was horrified that I am growing landraces. So I'll find or create other venues.

[castanea]

I've seen some of their written materials that express their utter disdain for landraces and hybrids.

It makes you wonder if they know where seeds come from......

[12540dumont]

The best thing about the new enterprise is that they are thinking about folks like Joseph, people who are doing new breeding.

Additionally they are open to new ideas.

When I wrote to SSE about my concern that seeds don't belong in a bank...but in the hands of farmers and gardeners, I didn't even get a response.

I always believed in SSE. I just think that perhaps they have lost their way.

After all what good does it do if all I ever do is save seeds? The seeds will eventually die. I need to get them in the hands of folks who will plant them and play with them and make the evolve, and keep some true, and step on them, and over water them, and let them get eaten by deer and bugs, and dry up in drought and resurrect them because Ferdzy or Wolfcub still had 5 puny plants and some how managed to pass on a few seeds.

Seeds are living things, they belong not to corporations or people, they hold with in them life, and are just waiting for a chance to grow.

Now you all get outside and plant something. Me, I'm pulling weeds and eating them!

[zeedman]

I'm new on this board, so I have hesitated to enter this debate up until now... but recent comments have sort of brought my feelings on this situation into focus.

"Now there's moaning that there isn't enough money to take on new projects and SSE is somehow at fault."

As I understand it, the "moaning" isn't over new projects, but over the abandonment of previously funded projects which have long supported SSE's core mission.

"SSE is just like any other business, there is no law that it must operate at a loss."

Ditto Oxbow's comments. If I may ask, where is the evidence that SSE is operating at a loss? Or for that matter, that it has had a significant loss of revenue due to the (semi)organized boycott? SSE has steadily increased its staff since Kent's departure, hardly what you would expect of a financially-strapped organization. Even if I were to accept the $30,000 number, then the elimination of just one of those new positions would pretty much restore the balance.

And if there has been a major loss of membership or funding, how can it be attributed solely to the boycott, or Kent's letters? Members drop out every year, for various reasons. And given that SSE's actions & changing philosophies have driven away some long time supporters (especially recently), if there has been a mass exodus, those in charge need to shoulder some of the blame.

"Corporations cut or eliminate losing products irregardless of what a tiny minority may like."

Yes, corporations often do that. But when the corporation is a non-profit organization, and when those "losing products" represent a deviation from the organization's previously stated mission, then they run the risk of alienating their core constituency. In a grass-roots organization, every voice should be heard - not necessarily acted upon, but at least given a fair hearing. If it is not, and the "tiny minority" is treated with callous disregard, that lesson is not lost upon the membership at large.

"Again, I do not fault SSE, as a commercial enterprise (I believe you have made the point that that is what SSE is, on their forum), both retail and wholesale (if I remember correctly what you posted), but why people on this non-commercial forum should give a husky <----> whether some corporate seed enterprise (even though it be sold in folksy propaganda) sinks or swims, is beyond me." (censorship mine, sorry)

While I understand your sentiment, I don't want to see SSE fold, because the membership would go down with it. For the most part, the listed members are dedicated, well-meaning people, who believe in preservation, and want to make a difference. Among the the unlisted members are gardeners seeking alternatives to hybrids & exploring sustainable gardening... people that should be encouraged by more experienced gardeners. And going back to the original post (from which we are far astray), the vast majority of these members do not deserve to be painted by the same brush as the inevitable few bad actors that plague any large organization.

Nor do I have anything but respect for the preservation staff. I've visited Heritage Farm frequently, and met many of the staff... they are great people, and were kind to me without exception. Much of what I currently grow was given to me freely during those visits, for which they have my sincere gratitude. I've left a contribution every visit to express my appreciation.

"Like it or not, one thing applies here. "If one is not part of the solution, he is part of the problem."

I agree... but perhaps we need to define "the problem". If SSE chooses to no longer preserve parts of its collection, then it is left to others to plug the holes in SSE's previously all-inclusive safety net. Maybe Will could make that happen; and for the preservation of those abandoned cultivars, and the good of all of those who have left SSE for philosophical reasons (and taken their seeds out of circulation) I hope he does. In the cause of preservation, that would make him part of the solution.

There is quite a lot of bashing of SSE in this thread, and IMO, they have earned some of it. I have had some concerns of my own in recent years (some of which were covered by Will) but wouldn't want to see the staff or membership punished for the decisions of management. I understand those who choose not to support SSE financially because of their convictions, but it is really unfortunate when that leads to listed members boycotting their offerings. It hurts the wrong people, and imperils their collections unless they have an alternative means of dissemination.

With all of the focus on what's wrong, it is only fair to mention that there is still a lot being done right, and no one else with the resources to protect such a large number of accessions beyond a single generation. Furthermore, everyone (member or not) has free access to Heritage Farm during the growing season, and can observe everything SSE is growing, and ask questions of the staff. To put that in context, when I lived in the SF Bay area, you couldn't see John Jeavons' work except through paid tours, and then only through appointment... so free access doesn't have to be given, and I don't take it for granted. I'll maintain my membership, and continue to list my collection, for those reasons.

(steps down to planting level)

[Walk]

I've been following this thread as a life member of SSE who lives within an hour's drive of the farm. Knowing some of the personalities involved, I'd have to say that a large part of what happened was spillover of personal drama into the organization, at least at the start of the decline. This seems all too inevitable in any organization as it grows and ages. New players bring their own focus and faults on board as originators leave or retire and the organization either evolves or folds.

Some of the decline of listed members I've observed is that gardeners get old and cut back, retire, or expire and often their passion for seeds is not passed on. And weather extremes such as last year no doubt affected listings - our own offerings were narrowed down to only 1 pepper that thrived in all the heat. It seems important to do whatever is possible to ensure that this genetic heritage, along with any culturally relevant data, is brought forward to new generations of gardeners. SSE has worked long and hard to get the public forum it now has and its work is now recognized in most any gardening publication one looks at. The retail mail-order business was meant to be a source of funding for the organization so it could be self supporting rather than relying entirely on donations. An added benefit of the catalog is its visual enticement to gardeners to grow non-hybrid plants. While this has drawn some activity away from the exchange itself, it does allow gardeners who are merely curious to sample and trial varieties, perhaps getting more involved as they are more experienced. I remember in the past that some listed members didn't like sending seed out to those who weren't serious enough to reoffer a variety, so hopefully those gardeners who are motivated to pay for a membership are more likely to be ones who will participate in the exchange and there is still a way for newbies to get initiated with the retail seed packs.

The farm itself is an open-air museum to plants that anyone, member or not, can wander, hike, or just sit and enjoy. So while I see problems that the organization needs to deal with, and certainly the issue of Will and Glen's collections are very important to me, I don't want to undercut SSE and lose the decades of effort and future decades of benefit to farming biodiversity. I personally would like to see Will and Glen's "curator" collections maintained and structured so that they will continue after they are no longer physically able to do this work. (How many "Will's" or "Glen's" are out there, waiting in the wings to step in? They themselves are part of the treasure.) Whether this is through independent funding or under the SSE fiscal umbrella isn't important to me as long as both missions remain supportive of each other in all other regards. There needs to be plenty of room for constructive criticism without tearing down or destroying anyone's life work, even if it eventually leads to a respectful parting of ways.

(Would step down here to planting level except that it's snowing again!!!)

[paquebot]

I will repeat, no business has to operate at a loss. SSE lost a lot of money due to the boycott and now there are people advocating forming new operations to compete with them. There have been many similar attempts in the past and none came close. From a financial aspect, that would indicate that there is just X amount of dollars that the general public is willing to part with and there is no indication that 2xX is available. If there wasn't support for competing organizations before, where's any indication that one can do it now? With that in mind, if there's only room for one business on the market, only one will survive.

I don't know how much members rotate as far as joining for one year and leaving. Also no reason given for most that only join for a short time. I know of one here who joined, listed an apparent obscure seed of unspecified species, didn't sell any seeds, and dropped membership. How many other one and two item listers do the same? Quean C was always outspoken against those who only listed a few varieties but she was also very tight-lipped whenever asked how many seeds one should save. My initial listing was 12 new tomato varieties in 2007. I made certain that I had at least 5,000 seeds of each. In 7 years, I can count the number of requests for all but two on one hand.

There is even cause to wonder if the member's listings in the Yearbook are even important anymore. With the Internet, one can form an entire mail order seed company and have it up and running in one afternoon. Any variety really worth growing is now available somewhere else. If not, the seed companies know where to get their start. So far this year I've had requests for tomatoes from Fedco and Johnny's. Some others have come from those whom I know have their own little business. And when someone sends $50 and mines the 60 most likely to appeal to the ever-growing tomato world, I know damned well that they ain't buying them for a friendly backyard garden!

Martin

[paquebot]

Apr 13, 2013 22:34:25 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

I've seen no mention in any public statement by SSE that they are short of funds. Where are you arriving at the conclusion that this is a financial problem?

The loss of membership funds has already been addressed. The present problem is the holdings of Bonsall and Drowns. One has been reported as requiring up to $40,000. If those two people had thought that SSE were capable of preserving their holdings, why would they even remotely consider leaving? Now it would appear that they are hoping for some millionaire to bestow a huge grant on them so as to preserve their holdings. If SSE were capable of financing the preservation and their failure to do so caused their loss, such an announcement would cause a mass exodus of members and whatever was left of SSE would be up for grabs at 10¢ on the dollar at auction.

Martin