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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 14, 2013 12:09:25 GMT -5
The loss of membership funds has already been addressed. Could you direct me to where that point has been addressed? I cannot locate it. The present problem is the holdings of Bonsall and Drowns. One has been reported as requiring up to $40,000. If those two people had thought that SSE were capable of preserving their holdings, why would they even remotely consider leaving? Now it would appear that they are hoping for some millionaire to bestow a huge grant on them so as to preserve their holdings. If SSE were capable of financing the preservation and their failure to do so caused their loss, such an announcement would cause a mass exodus of members and whatever was left of SSE would be up for grabs at 10� on the dollar at auction. Martin I think you are misreading Mr. Bonsall's letter. Certainly I see nothing in it anywhere that indicates a desire for a millionaire to rescue him with a bottomless checkbook. What I see is a man who is interested in preserving the varieties and crops that have become his life's work. When SSE changes direction in such a way to endanger that goal, why fault him for seeking something to replace the support and redundancy SSE once provided? |
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Post by paquebot on Apr 14, 2013 12:51:51 GMT -5
The loss of membership funds has already been addressed. Could you direct me to where that point has been addressed? I cannot locate it. Joseph mentioned it, previous page. Martin |
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Post by paquebot on Apr 14, 2013 13:24:31 GMT -5
A problem which I see with Bonsall is hard to understand. He promoted his Scatterseed as being supported entirely by those who purchased "samples" via his SSE listings plus contributions. Nothing wrong with that. By not listing anything in the Yearbook, he voluntarily eliminated his primary source of income. As he has stated, "Contributions of any kind are in great need, and welcome." That pretty much is an open-ended request for anything from $1 to $1,000,000 or anything in between.
For those not familiar with the number of members who list in the SSE Yearbook, the 2012 number of 642 was the lowest number since 1987's 628. The peak was 1995 with 1,031 listing members. Number of varieties listed in 2013 is the lowest since 2006. Total listings are the lowest since 2005. All arrows somehow are pointing downward.
Martin
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Post by billw on Apr 14, 2013 14:53:55 GMT -5
At the same time, at least anecdotally, gardening seems to be on the rise.
I wonder if this is an indication that more people are maintaining their own varieties.
Probably wishful thinking, but that would be really encouraging.
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Post by blueheron on Apr 14, 2013 15:28:37 GMT -5
$0.02 from a new SSE member:
I'm a new member of SSE, but am not listed because I missed the cut off date and wasn't sure how it all worked. I've placed orders with both listed members and the SSE heritage farm - hoping seeds arrive soon. I will see how it all pans out before I decide whether to renew and list next year.
I will say, however, that the catalogue sat in my living room for a good 2 months before I decided to order anything - entirely because I couldn't find those varieties online or anywhere else. The idea of paying cash, through the mail, for something that may not be available anymore was not appealing. I'm used to ordering seeds online - receiving a confirmation email, and notification of shipment. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I can't see how SSE's catalogue method will survive in the future.
As for all the controversy, as long as they holding to their core mission, it's just politics like in any office. But if they aren't, then I'm happy to support new projects or organizations to fill in the gaps or provide a new venue entirely. In the meantime, I will try to make the most of the $45 membership fee I paid.
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Post by billw on Apr 14, 2013 16:01:02 GMT -5
I understand that. I find having to print out a check, an order form, and fill out an envelope is a big enough pain that I often don't bother. I do realize how pathetic that sounds, but it is true. I put off making an order from the Sand Hill Preservation Center for more than a year because of that. I might write two or three checks per year these days. It usually takes me two weeks to find the check book.
Any replacement for SSE should definitely consider using an online platform for the members to list, track inventory, and to act as a middle man in the sales process so that someone can order from multiple listers in one go. Heck, one could just put together a front-end for Amazon and use their private seller system.
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Post by paquebot on Apr 14, 2013 16:02:41 GMT -5
There are some more points which need clearing up. Some are under the impression that Scatterseeds is something new but it's not. My earliest Yearbook is 2003 and everything that Bonsall listed was part of Scatterseeds already then. In 2012, there were 1,619 varieties listed under ME BO W. That was down considerably from the 2,133 in 2003. He was also probably the only one who could get away with asking for more than what the suggested rates were. "although SSE sets the sample rates, consider sending more if you can." In 11 years, I've never found anyone else who suggested more than the maximum.
Martin
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 14, 2013 16:11:18 GMT -5
The idea of paying cash, through the mail, for something that may not be available anymore was not appealing. I'm used to ordering seeds online - receiving a confirmation email, and notification of shipment. Maybe it's a generational thing, but I can't see how SSE's catalogue method will survive in the future. I think that it's more cultural than generational... I can't see how electronic payment methods will survive into the future: especially not in relation to traditionally grown landrace or promiscuously pollinated seeds which are becoming more and more like contraband with each passing year in the usa, and are already contraband in Europe. It doesn't surprise me to see traditionally grown seeds being sold "cash only" in the same way that marijuana is sold on a cash only basis. Sure there are some drug dealers that accept electronic payments for drugs, but they tend to not be successful long-term players. For what it's worth, when you mail cash to a farmer, you are setting up a powerful psychological connection with the farmer that doesn't exist if you send digital (imaginary) payment. When I used to accept digital payments, people got exactly what they had contracted for. People that send physical items usually get much more. I think that we are in a cultural clash occurring between the centralizers and the localizers. People that grow locally adapted landrace seeds are on one extreme of that divide. Cash is the payment method that works best in a localized economy. |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 14, 2013 16:19:49 GMT -5
Could you direct me to where that point has been addressed? I cannot locate it. Joseph mentioned it, previous page. Martin Here's what Joseph said... I used the wayback machine to look up data for SSE membership. It looks like listed members (those offering seeds) has declined by 15% since 2007. Total membership has almost doubled. So it has become more like a retail operation and less like growers sharing seed with each other. The number of unique varieties offered has declined by 16% since its peak in 2011. It looks like the biggest loss of membership and listed members (15%) occurred between 2007 and 2008, I suspect due to the fracas over donating to the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. The membership recovered and grew robustly, but the listed members continues to decline since then. [Paquebot: that estimate of 1000 members lost was spot on.] No way to tell if the boycotters returned, of if these are new members. The publicity surrounding the boycott seems to have been good for the corporation side of SSE, but bad for the cooperative organization side. Almost 2000 varieties were lost from the catalog. How does "Total membership has almost doubled" equate to a massive loss of revenue to the SSE? It costs exactly the same to be a listed member or an unlisted member. When I do the math it looks like revenue from memberships is at an all-time high while the number of unique varieties listed is dropping steadily along with the number of listed members. I don't see a financial problem for the SSE in those statistics, at least in the short term. I see a significant departure from the mission of the organization and not much effort to correct the downward trend in listings and listed members. I value the SSE and intend to continue my membership as a listed member. I've listed more this year than I ever have. But that doesn't mean I can't see the signs of an organization who's leadership has spent too much time drinking their own bathwater. |
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Post by 12540dumont on Apr 14, 2013 16:27:18 GMT -5
I don't think SSE is going to go away. Some of us may have doubted their $$ abilities, for example why take on cattle if you can't afford to keep seed that you have in your fridges?
I don't think SSE has monetary problems at all. They've built new libraries etc., in the last few years.
I do think the problem is that they have become unresponsive to their members.
Perhaps a smaller group could address some of these problems.
SSE will continue and the new group will continue. Different but similar.
Mostly to help along other folks, I will continue my SSE membership, but am definitely going over with Will. After all, 4 pages of carrots and 200 pages of tomatoes. I had a hard time finding more than 10 varieties of carrots for my trial. And were it not for Templeton and a few others from the other side of the pond, I could not have done the carrot trial at all.
There is only one person in all of SSE who stiffed me for the money...Barnes, and I think he was dead. OK fella who had the glass gem corn. But I learned from that. When I contacted SSE about it, they did nothing.
Hey but it is not as bad as what happened when I ordered $200 worth of trees from Wagon Wheel Farm....I've not see the trees, my money and he doesn't answer my e-mails. Yeah, so be careful.
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Post by paquebot on Apr 14, 2013 22:59:46 GMT -5
Joseph's report did indeed reveal a drop due to the boycott. They were hurting before that as well when they closed one of their retail stores due to cash flow problems. They've been able to recover despite the bad publicity. Does anyone think that they are going to keep all of their present membership if there's a campaign to push competition? There's already been a ton of unwarranted negative press about Bonsall not listing in 2013. All that it needed are 10% to believe it and those 10% exist. Some make it sound like he all but ran the SSE when his status was just another member like anyone else. He just happened to be an operation which took in tons of money because of it and he still wanted more. I left the rat race a year before I could sign up for SS. I didn't spend that year complaining that my former employer wasn't providing me with a paycheck for those 52+ weeks.
Martin
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 14, 2013 23:28:43 GMT -5
? Confusion prevails
Craziness beaming in its peak
Coherent thoughts please! |
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Post by zeedman on Apr 15, 2013 3:12:33 GMT -5
I loved the retail store in Madison, and visited it several times a year. But a brick & mortar store is different from a catalog operation... being good at one doesn't automatically make you good at the other. It is a fixed market, and unless you are in a high-traffic area, you can eventually exhaust the local clientele. Furthermore, if what you are selling is seasonal, the financial strains of the off-season can be fatal. As much as I loved that store, I think that after the novelty wore off, it was doomed to fail. A previous employer of mine made the same mistake, thinking they could open up a direct-market store front... but just because you are selling good products wholesale, doesn't mean there is enough of a sustained local market to keep a retail store afloat. "A problem which I see with Bonsall is hard to understand. He promoted his Scatterseed as being supported entirely by those who purchased "samples" via his SSE listings plus contributions. Nothing wrong with that. By not listing anything in the Yearbook, he voluntarily eliminated his primary source of income."I agree; his present funding shortage is at least partly a situation of his own making. But there comes a point of anger and/or frustration where you just need to make a clean break from a bad situation, and to judge by Will's statement, he had reached that point. I've been there a few times in my own life, and know what that feels like... sometimes getting away is more important than the loss of anything left behind. "I don't think SSE is going to go away. Some of us may have doubted their $$ abilities, for example why take on cattle if you can't afford to keep seed that you have in your fridges?
I don't think SSE has monetary problems at all. They've built new libraries etc., in the last few years.
I do think the problem is that they have become unresponsive to their members.
Perhaps a smaller group could address some of these problems.
SSE will continue and the new group will continue. Different but similar"Added emphasis mine... I agree on all points. "There are some more points which need clearing up. Some are under the impression that Scatterseeds is something new but it's not. My earliest Yearbook is 2003 and everything that Bonsall listed was part of Scatterseeds already then. In 2012, there were 1,619 varieties listed under ME BO W. That was down considerably from the 2,133 in 2003. He was also probably the only one who could get away with asking for more than what the suggested rates were. "although SSE sets the sample rates, consider sending more if you can." In 11 years, I've never found anyone else who suggested more than the maximum."True, for the most part. But then, neither will you find anyone else who has listed more, and few who have listed longer. In my 2009 Yearbook, Will is already named among those listing for 20+ consecutive years. That represents over a generation of sustained dedication to preservation. I don't consider all of those years of curating Scatterseed to be a negative; to the contrary, it makes him highly qualified to set up an alternative plan for comprehensive, long-term preservation. "They've been able to recover despite the bad publicity. Does anyone think that they are going to keep all of their present membership if there's a campaign to push competition? There's already been a ton of unwarranted negative press about Bonsall not listing in 2013. All that it needed are 10% to believe it and those 10% exist.If SSE has been able to "recover", it was chiefly injured by self-inflicted wounds, not by bad publicity. I would concede that Kent did some lasting damage on the way out, but even that - had it been handled more tactfully - could probably have been avoided. At every controversy, SSE has had opportunities to defuse the concerns of the membership by open dialog... which they have not done. That just fosters negative speculation, lends fuel to critics, and creates a lack of faith among the membership. And when two of the strongest long-time supporters not only leave suddenly, but take their collections out of the Yearbook, I would say that some "negative press" is warranted. I would question whether there is "a ton" of it, though, since I find mention of it on few forums, and I haven't really seen much on the topic anywhere but here. Am I missing something? Is there some other blog or national publication I should be paying attention to?  It is within SSE's power to repair its damaged reputation, and to restore the faith of the membership. I hope they will choose to do so, before the damage becomes irreparable. Thus far, SSE's response to controversy has been to weather the storm with silence... but IMO, we have reached the point where silence sends the wrong message. They don't need PR, they need to return to their grass roots, and reestablish lines of communication with the membership. Some make it sound like he all but ran the SSE when his status was just another member like anyone else."I would beg to differ. Will was not "just another member"; he was an Advisor, a Curator for many crops, and the largest listing member other than SSE itself. While he was not management, Will was intimately involved with SSE at all levels for many years, and as such, he was positioned better than most to observe the direction taken by the organization over the years. So I take his criticisms seriously. But no, he was not the center of the SSE universe; many others, such as Glen (also an Advisor & Curator) were equally important, and one could argue that Glen was even more influential in creating SSE as we know it today. I would be equally interested in hearing his reasons for leaving, but he has chosen not to air them in a public forum, and I respect that. If a new organization forms, I hope Glen will have a hand in it. |
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Post by paquebot on Apr 15, 2013 13:24:32 GMT -5
Yes, Will and Glen were both advisers and curators and there are others who share the same importance. But they were just another listing member in the yearbook. One can be named a curator but there is no fee or subsidy which comes with it. It's really an honor and nothing wrong with that.
If there is enough turmoil kicked up over Bonsall no longer listing, is that going to affect the membership next year? Or, is it going to result in many more members listing varieties which Bonsall previously had an exclusive? If his varieties were all worth saving, and every one of them is in the hands of other members, could make for a very thick 2014 Yearbook if all were relisted. I know that he bought some seeds from me but don't know if he relisted them or not nor do I care.
As for SSE finances, I read all of Kent Whealy's letters again last night some gave the impression that SSE was on the verge of bankruptcy and going to lose everything that he worked for. Doesn't look like it happened and one can should be able to find the most recent financial statement of the non-commercial portion.
The closing of the Madison store was quite unexpected. I stopped in specifically to see Aaron plus take advantage of the half-price sale on all seeds in December. Aaron was in Colorado arranging to lease certified potato acreage so I missed him. I simply went through the seed racks and pulled one of everything I didn't already have. That was in '04. The assistant manager, Dianne, was excited about getting ready for the new stock for '05. When I stopped in mid-January, store was empty. When reported on Garden Web, Quean C said that she knew it was coming due to overall money shortage. I could not argue the point since all I knew was that the store was no more. Next time I saw Aaron was about the time that the SHTF with his parents and all he could do was bite his lip and shake his head.
Martin
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Post by steev on Apr 18, 2013 21:36:46 GMT -5
Only generically apropos: the Baker Creek store in Petaluma comes to mind. It's in a handsome ex-bank building on a highly visible and well-travelled corner. I remember when it was an antiques-stall emporium, and then an Oriental-rug-and-furnishings concern. I last tried to shop there on a Sunday (lots of day-trippers drive through on Sunday) but they were closed. I'm not complaining, as I'm sure pretty much all they offer that is of interest to me is in their beautiful, slick catalogue, but I wonder how much foot-traffic they get during the week, noting the local-market saturation postings above.
Given that they switched their Heritage Seed Festival from week-end to mid-week this year, I wonder whether they may also be beguiled by the sort of marketing model that may have resulted in some of SSE's problems. I wonder whether Disneyland is really a viable model for a farmer/gardener-based enterprise.
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