Crossing Broccoli & Kale etc.

[ferdzy]

So we have grown Purple Peacock "brokali", a hybrid between a broccoli and Russian kale, for the last 2 years. We were not too impressed with it the first year, as we thought it was too much like its kale parent. It has to be admitted that kale may be a super-nutritious vegetable, but it isn't our favourite. We conceded, however, that we planted it in the spring, and it grew and was ready in late summer, and that it would probably do better in cooler weather. So we planted it again last summer, a bit later, not too much of it, just to give it another try.

Well, last summer was so awful, with so little water and so many bugs, that we kind of forgot about it. It also didn't get cleaned out of the beds, and most of it survived the winter quite well. Now I've pulled it out, and saw that it had lots of nice little brocco-buds. We ate 'em, and found we thought they were much better than the first time round. Not to mention that getting broccoli-type veggies right now is unheard of, and very convenient!

SO; my question: has anyone tried crossing broccoli and kale? What happened?

I'm thinking of trying it. I wouldn't use Russian kale, which I don't love, but probably Groninger Blue kale, which is milder and sweeter. It too survived the winter, admittedly under a hoop-house but still, it should be hardy enough to work with. I have a number of broccolis to work with; I would have to see what survived the winter in order to have a shot at parenthood. They are not quite as likely to survive as the kales here. If anyone could recommend a variety that they have found to survive a Zone 5 winter, that would be useful info.

I'm also considering throwing some kohlrabi into the mix as well. I left a bunch of those in the open ground, and I'd say 95% survived the winter, so they'd definitely bring some hardiness to the mix. They too were forming flower heads, which I cut off and ate like mini-broccoli buds. Not quite as sweet or as tender as the brokali, but perfectly nice.

Comments? Suggestions?

[bertiefox]

There's a whole section about doing this in Carol Deppe's wonderful book, "Breed your own Vegetable Varieties", Chelsea Green Publishing, ISBN 978-1-890132-72-9.
The main problem is not getting the cross but in stabilising and continuing the next generations and avoiding any form of cross pollination.
As her well researched book points out, it is great fun trying out and with time and patience you can truly come up with some really novel results. I want to try crossing a robust red fodder kale grown here called Polycaul with some kind of purple winter sprouting broccoli.

[ferdzy]

Doh! I have that book. I don't remember that bit, but I wasn't thinking of brassicas at all when I read it. I'll have to go back and have another look. Thanks, Bertie.

[rowan]

I LOVE Purple Peacock. The whole plant tastes great - leaves, flowers, buds, and I can harvest it all year round. It is perennial here, even after it flowers and sets seed it starts shooting again with gusto. The bud clusters are small but I sell it in bags rather than bunches so I don't mind.

It is something I can always put in by CSA boxes and my customers don't mind a bit and my market customers are always asking for it. Did I mention that I LOVE this plant

[raymondo]

My brassica mix has kale (Black Tuscan), collard (Georgia Southern and Green Glaze), cabbage (Vertus and a red one) and broccoli (Broccoli Baby) in its parentage. I'll be adding another kale too, one called Pentland Brig. It's a lovely looking kale but I haven't tried eating any yet. I don't grow my mix for the buds so I haven't taken any notice of those. I will look more closely when I let the next lot go to seed.

[cesarz]

I had Kale "Redbor" crossed with a purple sprouting Broccoli and the offspring looked like very nice reddish green curly kale with red ribs with tons of nice tasting reddish purple Broccoli sprouts. Never got seeds from it as my housemates ate every single flower bud, they were very tasty!

Will try breeding one again.

[hortusbrambonii]

Don't forget about the genetics here: some kales (Russian and Siberian Kale for example) are not Brassica oleracea but B. napus.

This is quite inteeresting: seedambassadors.org/Mainpages/still/napuskale/napuskale.htm

[ferdzy]

Cesar, I think I tried growing sprouting broccoli once, but not a single one survived the winter. I'll try them again, but I would need a particularly hardy one in my climate.

Hortus, thanks for that. I think the Groninger Blue kale I'm interested in working with is oleracea though.

People keep describing kale in general and Red Russian kale in particular as "sweet" and I keep saying, what planet are you people living on?!? It's distinctly BITTER. Much less so in cold weather it's true. No doubt there is sweetness in there, but since the bitterness overwhelms it most of the time, what good does that do? That's one of the reasons I would like to do some crossing. Get that hardiness with much less bitterness.

[ferdzy]

Missed Rowan and Raymond!

Rowan, I guess I'll be giving it another try! The enthusiasm of other people for this surprises me though; I just don't find it that great. I guess I'm fussy.

Raymond, that sounds like an interesting mix. What was your goal in mixing and what have you achieved?

[hortusbrambonii]

Groninger blue? Like 'Groninger blauwe snijmoes', an old heirloom from Holland? That's most likely B. napus (B. rapa according to some seed-selling sites even).

[ferdzy]

Yes, that will be the one, Hortusb. At least, it is sold by an Ontario family-owned seed company of Dutch origin, and they have a lot of Dutch seed, so it seems most probable. I couldn't find any info on it besides their own site, but it makes sense that more will be available if I use the proper Dutch name... I will go look it up. Napus, eh? I guess that will complicate the picture.

[hortusbrambonii]

It is clearly a Dutch race: Groninger means 'from Groningen', which is a Dutch province, and 'blauwe' in dutch is 'blue'. Snijmoes is usually the name for some kind of oldfashioned chard (which would be a leafy Beta vulgaris f cicla), but for some reason the people in Groningen do use the word for this kale too... It gives a lot of hits in dutch google, mostly sellers of seed with not that much information.

B. napus is tetrapoid (One genome of B. oleracea and one of B. napus, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_of_U ) and B. oleracea usually diploid, so hybridising them could be complicated (possibly even more difficult than crossing B. oleracea with B. rapa to get a new napus would be)...

[ferdzy]

Bram, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about brassicas! So my question to you: if you were going to try crossing a broccoli with a kale, with the idea of producing a mild-flavoured vegetable that would over-winter well and produce flower buds in the spring, which two varieties would you cross, and why? I am a complete newbie to the idea of hybridizing anything and could definitely use all the help I can get. Also I should start off with fairly simple crosses to do, and not jump straight into difficulties.

[hortusbrambonii]

I'm not the biggest expert, but when I don't know something I google it or look it up in books.

I would probably use one of our curly borecoles, which are a traditional winter vegetable over here, and try to find a broccoli that's winter hardy, or maybe a sprouting broccoli. Maybe plant several ones and see what survives the winter.

Do you know spigariello or leaf broccoli? It is some kind of broccoli but grown for its leaves. I had one coming up last year from a leaf cabbage/kale mix, and it has a very soft taste and I quite liked it, but unfortunately it did not survive the winter, so it does not fit your requirements...

[ottawagardener]

I have a purple broccoli x nutribud cross that I have been meaning to sow. Maybe tomorrow.

Yes, I know of leaf broccoli. It's growing right now in the ol' garden.