SSE technical question

[steev]

So pessimistic; so in tune with my thinking; is this a hand-basket we're in? Where are we going?

[shoshannah]

Years ago I bought sunroots at the grocery store.  I planted some of it in my garden.  Back then there was no mention of difficulties of digesting.  I digest it OK, but I may have tolerance from my ancestors who ate sunchokes.
 
People interested in permaculture are trying it, also those who are trying it as a source of inulin.

Back in the 70s I got a membership with SSE because they had so many interesting varieties.  I had too much on my plate back then to get into seed saving.

The only seeds I saved were flowers that were all crossed up just like a landrace.    I'd save a big coffee can full of marigold seed every year.

 

[paquebot]

Nov 16, 2016 11:09:12 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

It is my experience that out there in the world the people who are screaming the loudest about the loss of diversity are not doing a darn thing about it but make a lot of noise.

That is so true. If one is not part of the solution, he is part of the problem. There have been many expressing their concern about Will Bonsall's holdings. Takes money to continue such a project. Who is supposed to subsidize it? Same people who think that SSE should do it are the same ones who won't join because it's too expensive. It's not too expensive, it's just an excuse to yell. There was a recent SSE fund raising to get funds for a new seed vault. One of the events was in Madison, WI where SSE used to have their only store. The photo distributed after the goal was reached was an old bearded guy standing with Diane Whealy. I'm not part of the problem but part of the solution.

Martin

[zeedman]

Eloquently stated, TMI, and I concur wholeheartedly.

The "heirloom" fad has perhaps not so much as faded, as become decentralized. Quite a number of seed companies have brought heirloom varieties into the mainstream. Even my local greenhouses sell plants for quite a few OP varieties now, where they previously sold mostly hybrids. Some vegetables - most notably tomatoes & peppers - have developed fanatical followers online, and their survival into the future seems assured. For crops that are less popular though, or more difficult to preserve (such as Will's biennials, or sunchokes), the future is less certain. I'm a bean fanatic, for example, and there is no centralized place for those of like mind to gather & exchange knowledge and seed. SSE used to be the safety net for the less-curated crops, but that net has too many holes now to be effective... for good or ill (and IMO mostly ill, since no one is poised to pick up their slack) they are no longer the center of the heirloom universe.

The real problem is that gardening itself is diminishing in importance across our culture. Over the years, I've watched the devolution of our food markets; although they have grown in size, there are fewer choices in raw ingredients, and whole aisles now dedicated to a single "heat & eat" food. I have one choice for snap beans - and 20 different brands of pizza! Cooking from scratch is becoming something only "Grandma" does... and when you don't cook from scratch, you don't appreciate the freshness & flavor of home-grown produce. So as the older generations (which is, I believe, most of those here) are forced to stop gardening, there will be fewer & fewer willing pick up where we leave off. Sad to say, this trend will probably continue, unless some cataclysm occurs which threatens our fragile food system to the point where people begin to feel insecure about their sustenance... and a great deal of knowledge may have been irretrievably lost by that point. Yeah, there are books to fall back on; but books, IMO, are a poor substitute for learning first-hand from someone with a lifetime of experience. It is like the difference between having a trained mechanic walk you through a car repair, and doing it yourself - with no prior experience - using only a manual. The little tips & tricks that make the job easier are often left out of the book.

My grand parents were nearly self-sufficient. They grew up on a farm without electricity, although they eventually used propane to power a refrigerator. They knew how to hunt, fish, farm, gather from the wild, and how to preserve their food supply through the winter. Their canning & pickling was particularly impressive. I didn't fully appreciate that as a teenager, but looking back on that now, I wish I had paid better attention to what they tried to teach me. Enough of their passion soaked into me to set me on my present path, though. I left Wisconsin to join the Service, and they both passed away while I was gone... wish I had that to do over, so much I could have learned from them. My own children have shown a similar reluctance to learn from me, although they are beginning to show some interest in gardening... probably due to all of the Sunday dinners with fresh heirloom produce. If only there were a cell phone app for gardening, I might be able to get the grandchildren interested.

There are so few places left now for serious gardeners to gather; the gradual collapse of once-active garden forums probably reflects the waning interest in gardening by the newest generations. I'm glad to have found this forum, it is the sole remaining oasis for those of us who have caught "the bug" to gather with others of like mind... hope it stays that way, whatever it takes to ensure that continuity.

[walt]

Paquaot said "Same people who think that SSE should do it are the same ones who won't join because it's too expensive. It's not too expensive, it's just an excuse to yell.



I just looked up the membership price.  It starts at $50.  That is more than my annual garden budget.  Fortunately, my 1 1/2 acres are paid for.  So about all I invest each year is sweat.  In my younger days I did maintain several varieties of grains and vegetable, some fruits, and offer them in the SSE yearbook.  But for now I am done with heirlooms and am breeding new varieties.  But either way, I just don't have $50 a year for a membership to anything.
And I for one am not yelling about it.  Not even complaining.  Just a waste of energy.  I do run the Species Iris group of North America, which in spite of it's name, has members, seed donors, and seed customers on all continents except Antarctica.  That takes a lot of energy too, but it accomplishes more than yelling or complaining.

[prairiegarden]

Nov 16, 2016 3:32:01 GMT -5 paquebot said:

Nov 15, 2016 20:43:25 GMT -5 prairiegarden said:

you have much more faith than I do in that regard. Some years back Stokes started selling Flv R SvR (something like that) corn and I think tomato seed and it was genetically manipulated seed. .

I don't believe that any Flavr Savr tomato seed was ever available to home gardeners. I even put out a reward for some seeds but nobody could ever track any down. It had the early spoiling gene turned off, same gene lacking in Giraffe, Stoney's, and other long keepers. It would have been a great variety to cross into great varieties with very short shelf life./

Martin

Well damn I finally got around to clearing out old catalogues a couple of months ago or I could've told you the year and the exact veggies. Stokes has been selling various melons for some years, I think they all had names like Athena and Aphrodite  that you had to sign something if you were going to buy 1000 seeds or more, iirc, but the small grower didn't have to. The  Flv R SvR  thing was what alerted me to look for the safe seed pledge that they had at one time , when I contacted them they said they didn't carry GMO seed but couldn't explain in that case how the gene could be patented and in the seed. That's when I stopped buying stuff from them. 

[paquebot]

Flavr Savr tomato was discontinued long before the Safe Seed Pledge became popular. It was available only through Calgene which discontinued producing it in 1997. Safe Seed Pledge started in 1999. By then there were no Flavr Savr seeds available anywhere and apparently still aren't.

Martin

[prairiegarden]

I don't know that I agree that the fad of gardening is fading.from all reports organic produce is supposed to be the fastest growing industry, and lots of people are growing gardens because they can't afford to pay the store prices. The last few years all sorts of new ideas are being brought forward and now are fairly commonly seen, from raised beds to growing on walls and roofs, plans for diy wicking boxes and aquaponics are all over the Internet, sheet mulching with cardboard, hugelculture, straw bales have all hit mainstream . People are raising stuff in pop bottle chains in windows or on fire escapes, or in shopping bags and milk crates.

Several places have recently added gardening as school subjects, I believe in parts of Australia a permaculture based program is part of the regular school curriculum. In Canada there are a couple of places, one in BC and one in Alberta that the high schools have built greenhouses. There is ..to my eyes anyway..a very active urban farm sort of scenario, ranging from Brooklyn to guerrila gardeners in the gang infested areas of LA. These people are unlikely to be spending time on Internet forums, they are apprentices, really, being introduced to a world they are totally new to. One teacher in Brooklyn has done phenomenal work with kids from about as disadvantaged a background as it is possible to get. Teachers and people working with ex? teenage and older gangsters commonly report that attendance goes up and behaviour issues go down, and that's a huge incentive to keep going.

It's perhaps mostly a different demographic, and they haven't got here yet. Or another point might be that people are starting to put out courses, with the person selling the course available to discuss things with over and above the course. So those are likely diverting people away from forums into their own groups.

As far as plant breeding, it probably never has been something that the majority of people ever got involved with, but those with curiosity probably will. The thing is, it gets no press. The only things most people hear about that the guy down the street might be doing is trying to grow the biggest pumpkin ever. Otherwise, it probably never comes into their mind. But it will eventually, for some anyway.

Legacies are tricky things.

[shoshannah]

At this time I don't have the interest to pay $50.00 for SSE membership.  I'm really intrigued with non-traditional methods of gardening.  I'm not concerned with purity in my garden.  I look at the heritage veggies as a source for breeding, not preservation.  I've bankrolled enough seed to have projects for the rest of my life, for seed makes more seed. Though I'm sure I'll be enticed to have a few more.

Only one of my sons enjoys gardening.  He and his wife are both chefs and enjoy good food.  Now he is too busy to garden. 

Both of my parents were raised on farms.  They had a veggie garden and chickens but that is not in my memory.  It was just something they lost interest in.  Veggies have to be prepared as meals and my mother was not a scratch cook.  So many convenience foods became available throughout her life.   I do remember lots and lots of flowers, so it was not the hard work and maintenance of veggies. 

I too think we are a hardcore lot and up to the challenge.  I started out with a garden, preserving it's bounty, and always scratch cooked.  I'm so used to scratch cooking it doesn't seem at all hard.  At least my DIL wants to learn about cooking, crafting, and flower gardening.  We're very lucky the neighbor loves flower gardening so the two are already sharing knowledge and exchanging plants.  DIL lost interest in veggie growing pretty quick but I'm sure my DIL will at least grow herbs and green garlic and onions, especially since they are key ingredients to our favorite salad dressing. 

I'm so happy to find this forum.  Maybe they don't always have the answers I seek but I least feel encouraged to experiment and find solutions and post my progress.  I do feel a kinship, bonding and a sort of tribal belonging that I would really miss if the sight went down.  





 

[reed]

SSE, Baker Creek, the book "Seed to Seed" and all that stuff to me, was demoralizing and nearly made me give up the notion of saving my own seed. Thankfully I realized I have zero interest in the romanticized notion of preserving the history of some bean. Not to mention if they really want you to keep something going why don't they include enough seeds to do so? Gardening is about growing food, historic preservation is not related to that at all.  I couldn't care less about growing "seeds with history" as I think SSE web site home page says now. They can save that for the HGTV crowd. 

If they really want to preserve genetic diversity why don't they just mix up all the beans and sell them with the instructions to plant them all together and save the best ones? I bet if you got 100 people in a 100 different places to grow one seed of a 100 different beans you could in one season do more to preserve diversity than all the heirloom romanticism in the world. Variety names and family attachments just don't fill the jars at my house.

Regarding toomanyirons earlier post, YUP! steev , if the house is on fire, the house is on fire. What's pessimism got to do with it?

I'm just glad I found this forum. 

[Joseph Lofthouse]

As a sunroot breeder, I don't care if existing varieties of sunroots are not grown any longer. I generate a few dozen new varieties per year, and select four or five of them to become part of my breeding population. I send seeds and tubers of the new non-named varieties all over, so they are ending up in plenty of places: going feral, or dying, or being cared for. Whatever.

[raiquee]

I've read this thread and I'm sad. I'm sad because a lot said is true..

I'll post a 2017 gardening journal. Because as a 31 year old "millennial", I'm doing pretty damn good on our 4.3 acres.

I feel a large disconnect from older gardeners to myself and I don't get it. and honestly I'm like the one of very few younger people into this so you better let me into your club cause I'm getting pretty lonely!

I know how to garden. I don't need to be told how to garden. I've been seriously gardening for 12 years now. Last year I grew over 1000lbs of food for my family. I canned it, pickled it, fermented it, and dehydrated it. And I call phooey on anyone who is too "busy" to garden that is my age. I did it while finishing my bachelors, working full time with a 2 hour commute, and 3 kids. PHOOEY I say!

Problem is they lack passion. And if you are forcing someone without passion to pick up where you left off, you're knocking at the wrong door. And as someone who comes from a non gardening family, my door hasn't been knocked on.

[billw]

I think that collectors/preservers and breeders are indispensable partners in the maintenance and expansion of food crop genetic diversity. You can't preserve your way to diversity, but neither can you breed your way to it very effectively without good starting materials. If not for some very dedicated collectors, my breeding work would be crippled. Like many here, I don't give a rip about stories, but I'm glad that others do, because their enthusiasm has made my work much easier. I only wish that some of them would see the bigger picture a little more clearly and understand that preservation is just a stop loss action that ultimately requires more people to engage in localized breeding to repackage and carry on those genetics.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Raiquee:

My life is filled with 30-ish millennials who are passionately feeding me and my community. We cooperate gloriously with each other. I admire their ambition, strength, dreams, and vitality. They admire my experience, equipment, and pragmatism. Because we collaborate closely together, our local food network is much more resilient, and diverse.

Welcome home.

[raiquee]

Dec 5, 2016 18:41:06 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Raiquee:

My life is filled with 30-ish millennials who are passionately feeding me and my community. We cooperate gloriously with each other. I admire their ambition, strength, dreams, and vitality. They admire my experience, equipment, and pragmatism. Because we collaborate closely together, our local food network is much more resilient, and diverse.

Welcome home.

Maybe I should move out by you Joseph. I know you from TVille where I spend most of my days. I left GW because of a sense of feeling cut off. Forums are the closest I get to great like-minded folk. I have gotten a lot of people my age into gardening, mainly through my job. They simply are not on the level I am on however.

Thanks for the warmth.