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Post by steve1 on Jan 13, 2020 3:55:13 GMT -5
Keen101 - could be. From 5 F1 plants I got three viable (large for x fulvum) seeds and about 5 smaller non viable seeds all black in color. From the three F2 plants that germinated last year - one had a weird chlorophyll defect which it eventually outgrew. One plant is still growing and producing pods albeit slowly. I haven’t looked at the seeds of all the pods yet, but viability is better this generation. I might have 40 or 50 f3 plants to go on with.
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Post by steve1 on Oct 16, 2019 6:27:43 GMT -5
Thought I would let people here know that the first TGS garlic to be made available in Australia is Perhonnen Kahdesta, released by Tasmanian Gourmet Garlic, 5 years from seed. Its heritage is SPS x MPS In case you ever wondered whether Australia takes it's quarentine/biosecurity laws seriously - they do. Thought I'd pop this link up. TGC is currently closed for this reason (I guess).
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Post by steve1 on Sept 15, 2019 7:18:31 GMT -5
Do you think these were feral (dedomesticated) types or true wild species? Until now I thought colocynthis is the true wild species but I found many hints about other wild types. Is citron type also feral? Thanks ! imgrimmer, I really don't know. It was the same question that was just rolling around in my head. Maybe Walt will chime in on the ones he saw in Niger?
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Post by steve1 on Sept 15, 2019 7:05:38 GMT -5
walt, did the crosses work both ways and do you remember whether perenniality occured both ways if so?
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Post by steve1 on Sept 15, 2019 7:01:43 GMT -5
n 1978-1982 I was in the Republic du Niger, there were small. 10-15 cm. that grew wild, sometimes in dune soil as well as better soil. Temperatures got to 40+ C daily. And it was very dry. Sometimes when the ground was worked, after harvest, after the last rain of the year, the melons would grow and fruit. All were very bitter, but I wish I had collected seeds for breeding. There were also golfball sized muskmelons, with good smell but no flesh between the seeds and skin. They also grew under the same conditions. There you go, I had heard the watermelons were not good - and never tasted them. Better soil was not really a thing there. Interestingly for a place so far above sea level, there were lots of fossil corrals and shells. Don't recall muskmelons though, though could have been there too.
Yes, serious drought tolerant breeding material there.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 10, 2019 5:43:04 GMT -5
I remember seeing watermelon or citrons that were either wild or feral in the desert outside Riyadh (Saudi Arabia) in the late 90's. 40 c was nothing there and 50'c was not unusual. They were small - only baseball size, but it rained properly once a year in the three years I was there. Now that would be some interesting drought tolerant germplasm.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 10, 2019 5:36:41 GMT -5
The only reason I sowed it in it's case was because the guy who had grown it always did it that way - I asked, as I think I had read one of your post previously. Knowledgeable guy, whose opinion I trusted. Have done the first crosses. Wait and see time. Hopefully the Zea dip will produce pollen soon and I can do the reciprocal cross.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 7, 2019 19:21:10 GMT -5
Fair to say that is great news and you are one of the very few people that would know this. I couldn't find anything on Z.dip x maize, that was based on annual teosinte ssp. mexicana paper and yes pollen genes from memory. If I get 50% it will be much easier. Did you just not plant the F1 seeds in the seed case? That is how I sowed the Zea dip, 90+% germination.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 18:35:59 GMT -5
Bumping an old thread here... I did read somewhere (I think?) that covering (I guess the same) couple of leaves instead of the whole plant may work. Reviewing the function of Florigen that inhibits the reproductive stage in short day plants, it seems to make sense that if some of the plant produces the hormone for reproductive development it may be enough to trigger flowering. I have Zea diploperennis flowering as of today. Only silks, but flowering 75 odd days after planting in a growth room. Tried to pollinate using Hopi blue, but will try the reciprocal cross when teosinte pollen comes online. Interesting that diploperennis is naturalised in a few sites in Queensland, Australia - from what I can gather introduced/trialed many years ago as a tropical cattle forage. Yes, I think I'm the one who found a paper that said that and shared it here. I wouldn't know if I could find it again, but yeah. I forgot about it though Haha. Cool! Let us know how it goes. I'm still interested in this. Yes Andrew, I think you are the one who found the paper. I can’t find it either. Will update when I have progress.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 17:16:24 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct? I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics? Yes, it seems Zea diploperennis is somewhat neglected. I’m in a long day summer climate, but have germinated/ grown them in a growth room. Fair to say that I agree with you about why it hasn’t been worked with more. Hopefully, it’ll produce pollen soon and I can get some crosses done. 1% viable seed from maize crosses is what I’ve read for the non perennial teosinte. I would like to try and have crosses both ways to preserve the dip cytoplasm - but we will see what I can get. On a positive note in a growth room at 12 hrs day length it will probably continue to flower.
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Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 7:20:55 GMT -5
Bumping an old thread here... I did read somewhere (I think?) that covering (I guess the same) couple of leaves instead of the whole plant may work. Reviewing the function of Florigen that inhibits the reproductive stage in short day plants, it seems to make sense that if some of the plant produces the hormone for reproductive development it may be enough to trigger flowering. I have Zea diploperennis flowering as of today. Only silks, but flowering 75 odd days after planting in a growth room. Tried to pollinate using Hopi blue, but will try the reciprocal cross when teosinte pollen comes online. Interesting that diploperennis is naturalised in a few sites in Queensland, Australia - from what I can gather introduced/trialed many years ago as a tropical cattle forage.
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Post by steve1 on Aug 19, 2019 0:42:33 GMT -5
You can have perfectly good snows and snaps with a homozygous recessive complement of either parchment type. In fact the Sugar Snap varieties I tested via staining and test crosses were all low parchment with only one recessive homozygous set. Hope that helps. Steve, can you create a pdf with pictures of a good guide on how we can do our own staining to figure out if our pods are P or V or both? -AndrewSure. Just beware Phloroglucinol is not the nicest of chemicals, as is the HCL it's mixed with. Also, worth noting that this technique does not work with pea pods containing anthocyanins as the precursors of anthocyanins or the anthocyanins themselves cause everthing to be stained purple. That was a pain to find out. It was useful to me in that I could infer the genotypes of the parents and know what was segregating within what crosses. Rasmussons paper from 1927 I think, has the classical examples and I used his recipe for the stain. None of my pods were anywhere near as impressively stained as his. I put that down to nearly 100 years of selection against pod parchment or perhaps more elite parents in this respect. The best way might be two get two non anthocyanin lines ( I used Golden Podded/Sweet and Dwarf Sugar Snap) work out those - in my case one was PPvv and the other ppVV. The F1 of those was PpVv and a shelling or inlated pod phenotype as per Mendel. Then, knowing those you can use them as testers on anything you have. If you have only one set of low parchment genes in a line crossing it to both of them will yield low (constricted pod) parchment offspring in one cross and a shelling (inflated dry pod) phenotype in the other.
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Post by steve1 on Aug 14, 2019 6:37:50 GMT -5
There are two genes involved in getting completely fibreless pods, and I would guess Golden Sweet only has one of them. I haven't tried Shiraz – I bought a packet of seeds this year as a trial but didn't get round to sowing them – but just from looking at photos of it I suspect it might be the same. It doesn't look to me like a truly fibreless variety. When a pod is completely free from parchment you will usually see the peas bulging through the wall of the pod as they develop. Here's a link to a picture of Shiras that I grew 4 or 5 years ago. Parchment +++. www.dropbox.com/s/03alluqvrzwdonf/Shiras.jpg?dl=0 They were grown in a tunnel with temps hitting the mid 30's C, but these were pretty inedible at that size. Flat, without seed development they were just ok. Despite the parchment the test cross I did pointed to a vv genotype. My opinion is that there appears to be varying expression of parchment with the single recessive homozygous gene (perhaps due to modifying genes) and that there is probably a significant environment effect too, and as P and V are heat shock proteins high temperature probably adds significantly to parchment formation in some lines. Also, looking back at some of the staining I did for parchment - in the sugar snap I grew the suture parchement of the PPvv phenotype was probably less that .75 mm from the pod suture until it finished. It also broke easily, as the parchent formed on the diagonal on the endocarp. I couldnt pick its presence when eating, and assumed when I started a project it was ppvv. In regard to the really bendy pods having no parchment - I'm not convinced. The generally small localized size of the parchment in the pods I looked at (in the superior snow/snap types) would make it hard to cause straight pods. I think I may have posted some of the staining in another thread but happy to repost if people are interested. Golden Podded which I think is what we have here as Golden Sweet, is definately a single parchment gene. ppVV from memory.
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Post by steve1 on Aug 13, 2019 22:17:25 GMT -5
Parchment inside the pods is probably an ancestral trait. Probably mutations have knocked it out in two varieties but in different places. When both varieties are crossed variety A does the first part of the trait and B the last part and you've got parchment again. Some mutations are also extremely susceptible to back mutation. As far as I know there are two genes responsible for parchment named P and V. Simultaneous presence of P and V (PPVV, PpVV, PpVv) conditions normal parchmented pod. If P or V are present alone wihout the other (PPvv, Ppvv or ppVV, ppVv) then the parchment is partial. To have truly snow pea without any parchment you need both p and v. So when crossing two snow pea varieties one should always cross ppvv with ppvv and always get ppvv which is pure snow pea. But my experience does not verify the assumption. So in my view there are two possible explanations:
1) Shiraz or Golden sweet are not truly snow peas and at least one of the varieties has partial parchment (P or V).
2) There is other gene responsible for parchment apart from P and V.
Do you agree? Or is there any other explanation?
Hi Marekkvapil, most snows and snaps are either PPvv or ppVV. Le and V are a short distance apart on chromosome 5, so linkage is at play here. You would have expected to find your F1 as parchmented as well.
You can have perfectly good snows and snaps with a homozygous recessive complement of either parchment type. In fact the Sugar Snap varieties I tested via staining and test crosses were all low parchment with only one recessive homozygous set. Hope that helps.
Steve
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Post by steve1 on Jun 20, 2019 5:44:33 GMT -5
So are you guys trying congruity backcrossing with your interspecies hybrids? With the self incompatability genes, you'd need another compatible line - but crossing back to each parent in turn over 4 generations might sort your infertility issue (if its pollen related). It was the recommended strategy for pollen infertility issues in tepary x vulgaris beans. And another random thought, maybe germinate the pollen on a compatible stigma for a period (4-24 hrs), then use that stigma to pollinate the F1, F2... Germinated pollen bypasses stigmatic incompatability. Might cut down the numbers game. I'd be interested to see how it goes...
Cheers Steve
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